Assaults in Cologne and other European cities part VI

[HelpTheAnimalsFirst]

Thread 6.

It would be good if a new thread were started to discuss various religions
Massive derail here
How is the petition getting on?

She is a pain in the arse, with delusions of grandeur, She pontificates on subjects and then whines when she is called on it

Yes, quite a derail. My 2 pennies worth is while the Coran might have been an improvement on the traditions of the time in Arabia, such as female infanticide, it's hardly a suitable text for the 21st century. See the passages on men's right to beat disobedient wives, women's inheritance rights (1/2 that of male relatives) and women's worth as witnesses in trials (1 man's witness is worth that of 4 women's). Plus a lot of muslims see it as a literal guide for living, or think it should be, which is not the case for most Christians and the Bible.

hefzi, that was a really interesting post. Thank you.

Lumela, it was asked as a way of taking the piss though, out of me and Muslim women. Also, what does it have to do with what happened in Cologne
Ok, fair enough, I couldn't remember the context out of 1000s of posts. I do think it's still a serious question, though. And there's been a lot discussed on this thread with only a tangential relevance to Cologne (e.g. poetry), so that is a total red herring.

I'd still like to have decent discussion about how Islamism (e.g. Taliban) is viewed and the impact that has on western views of Islam.

There is an important difference between Islam and Christianity, which is that for various reasons Christianity developed into acceptance of a de facto separation of church and state very early on. So for example, priests and other "clerics" would be tried for crimes in separate Church courts, but the Church conceded that laws and judicial process for the rest of citizens were the province of the state. This is party for historical reasons and partly because of Christian scriptures. Jesus's words "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's" were taken to justify this separation, plus the idea that the new testament largely superseded the old meant that the detailed rules and laws in Leviticus about how people should behave could be seen as no longer relevant.

Islam is different from this. From the beginning, Muhammed was a secular ruler, and there is a lot in the Qu'ran and hadiths about what we would consider to be "secular" matters to do with law, punishment and how society should be ruled. The concept of separation of church and state is essentially hostile to the core Islamic scriptures. While it is (fortunately) true that Muslims are told in their holy texts to obey the laws of non-Islamic states if they are living there, there is still an emphasis that this is a matter of expediency, and not how things ought to be.

In this sense, fundamentalist text-focussed versions of Islam are not "just" a religion, but also a political ideology. And a very controlling political ideology, similar to something like say Maoism in the detail of how people are expected to live their lives, how they should be ruled, and what the consequences are of deviating from "the party line". Which is one reason why its core texts and beliefs should be open to criticism, in the same way we would criticise other political ideologies.

I also agree Shins.

Help has been banned?

Worried about petition now. Keep checking back here almost obsessively.

The government are holding up the petition? They have to approve of it before its published?

Ahh right. Then we won't hear anything yet awhile then. Thanks Lumela.

Dutch men put on mini-skirts to support victims of sex attacks.
Organised by the youth organisations of the major political parties. Could the same thing happen in the UK ?

scandi - isn't that utterly wonderful!

Love it!

Brilliant

I'm shocked if help has been banned as that normally only happens for repeated infringements and after warnings. To my way of thinking these thread have been balanced and well argued on the whole.

There have been some posts that could appear racist when taken in isolation but, as part of an ongoing discussion with repeated antagonism from a particularly hard-of-hearing and hard-of-thinking provocateur were clearly part of the robust discussion MN claims to foster. Whatever happened to freedom of speech? I would suggest that posts such as I think this thread proves how it has been taken by the far right already and how far right rhetoric and statements are becoming normalised and entering the mainstream, which seems to me to be dismissing the concerns of all of us as being right wing propaganda, as being far more offensive but phrased in such a way that reporting it would be useless

Hi all, apologies if this was covered earlier on one of these threads, but does anyone have a letter template for writing to MPs (or MEPs) about our concerns over sexual violence?

^ "Calm" - it was this exactly this statement of Emily that I reported to MN but no action taken.

Hope the petition will be approved and those of us who want to sign can do so speedily because Cologne loses momentum. I think it will stay in the limelight for a couple more weeks, until Karneval is over.

Whilst some information has now been published on the socio-econimic background of the perps, not much info has been forthcoming why it took so long to publish. Not just in Cologne but other cities, too. What has happened to journalism???

Someone could tweet a member of the committe for clarification, or ask how long before it is published?

www.parliament.uk/e-Petitions-and-the-Backbench-Business-Committee

Unlikely to happen today I would think, what with it being a Sunday

Please do publish the link here once it is open for signatures.

What has happened to journalism? Actually, there is a big problem in journalism that is down to lack of money. The internet has squeezed newspaper advertising and sales with devastating effect. Most journalists on quality papers don't have time to do any investigation; they spend a lot of time regurgitating press releases from public and private entities, in order to fill the pages. Things are very different from what they used to be. It's scary, because investigative journalism and even-handed reporting are very important in a democracy.

whataboutbob,

'Plus a lot of muslims see it as a literal guide for living, or think it should be, which is not the case for most Christians and the Bible'.

Unsubstantiated nonsense.

CalmyouBadSelf

A number of help's posts were racist, full stop. They can't be justified by what you describe as my repeated antagonism. I am not responsible for someone making their unpleasant views clear. Help's attitude to Muslims and assertions that their headwear is hostile to Westerners was not robust discussion and is characteristic of far right narratives that claim Muslims do not share our values. In her posts to me, which inferred I sympathised with extremists, help also displayed the antipathy of the far right to those that don't share their hatred and intolerance.

None of you challenged the racist claptrap help posted. Hatred and fear of Muslims has moved from the margins to the mainstream and your petition is rooted in it. This is actually what Isis want, tension between Muslims and everyone else.

'Plus a lot of muslims see it as a literal guide for living, or think it should be, which is not the case for most Christians and the Bible'.

Which part of this is "unsubstantiated nonsense"? The statement that Muslims see the Quran as a literal guide for living, or that this is not the case for most Christians and the Bible?

Maybe Help is deaf or hard of hearing and needs to be able to see a persons mouth moving to be able to understand them hence why she couldn't have a conversation with someone wearing a burka. But you don't know her or her circumstances yet you immediately jump in with a racist accusation because it suits your opinion of everyone on here. You should be ashamed.

Emily are you aware of the increasing number of Sharia courts in britain, let alone in Muslim countries?
Do you know many countries where the various exhortations in the Bible are translated into law (apart from the most basic and universally accepted ones such as thou shalt not kill, steal etc)?
I am clear in my own mind this is not about hatred or racism but about drawing a line in the sand and saying some practices are unacceptable (everyone would agree with that i think) but where some may have a problem is that it accepts and does not shy away from the fact that these practices are specific to or over represented in certain countries, which are mostly muslim majority countries. If we are too scared to stand up and say this it is a toothless exercise and I for one hope that the bien pensants do not intimidate the rest from stating and engaging with this inconvenient truth.