Quick Poll: EU stay or leave?

[BlueSmarties76]

Would you vote to stay or leave the EU?

Quick poll.

It was the very same situation with the Indyref Dagger. If you went by social media activity and unofficial 'click to vote' polls (and ignored official polls and the bookmakers' predictions) you'd have thought the Yes side were going to win by a hefty majority.

I voted in 1975 to be in the EEC, as it was then, believing the lies told about no loss of sovereignty, all about economic benefits, free trade, blah blah.

Since then I have watched politics, the wish for integration and the dead hand of Brussels take over and the free trade aspect become a sideshow to a unstoppable move towards more and more integration. They need more integration to make the disastrous Euro work. Introducing the Euro without first obtaining political and fiscal integration meant they were always going to be on a hiding to nothing. Pulling in countries into the Eurozone, such as Greece, who were never going to meet the EU's own criteria for joining, shows how much the EU is about a great political ideology and how little it is about trade.

Even so, I remained ambivalent until fairly recently.

However, I have moved more and more towards the leave campaign. I resent being "frightened" into hanging on to nurse for fear of something worse. And I am deeply suspicious of the voices that are campaigning to stay - big business (and I am no left winger), the political elite and most of all many of the same voices that tried against all sanity to get us to join the Euro.

For those who want to remain I would ask, even if the EU is OK now look ahead 10 years, 20 years, what do you think it will be like then?
If the change is anything like the change I have seen over the 41 years since we joined the EEC, be very afraid. Whatever you do, don't trust the so-called guarantee that we will not be drawn into ever closer integration. It's not worth the paper it's not written on.

Hear hear grimbletart

For those who want to remain I would ask, even if the EU is OK now look ahead 10 years, 20 years, what do you think it will be like then?

I want to LEAVE as I simply cannot reconcile Cameron's declaration that we are Safer, Stronger Better and have a greater influence by staying IN the EU than by being OUT, with what Ken Clarke had to say:

"I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe." (Kenneth Clarke, Conservative Chancellor in International Currency Review Vol 23 No 4 1996)

How much influence would we have then? Even less than we have now. We would be totally subjugated.

I honestly believe Merkel is insane. She has done a deal with the devil. Why wasnt Cameron at this meeting representing British interests? I dont understand how she was able to agree these proposals unchallenged. Is the EU a democracy or not?

With our border control now in the hands of Turkey and visa free-travel for 75 million Turks from 1st June, we are well and truly fucked. We really are,

This is a good article about how our EU membership affects women in so many different ways.

www.ibtimes.co.uk/why-women-should-vote-leave-eu-1548553

Is the EU a democracy or not?

No.

And that's it in a nutshell.

Ruled by a German Chancellor at last.

Maybe the Daily Mail has its own agenda going on here but at least they haven't a self-imposed blackout on the molestation of women by MENA men.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3485473/The-small-Swedish-town-terrorized-string-sex-attacks-eight-assaults-past-three-weeks-leaves-women-terrified-walk-dark.html

What's that got to do with the EU?

Err, quite alot actually.

Anna Forbes

Cameron was not at this meeting as UK is not part of the Schengen free travel area.
Uk has an opt out and maintains control of its own borders.
Non EU migrants accepted by other EU countries will have no right to come to UK.
Turks will not have visa free access to UK either unless the UK government chooses to grant it.

Cameron was not at this meeting as UK is not part of the Schengen free travel area.

That's quite a short-sighted view because at the meeting in Turkey Merkel agreed to give asylum to Syrian refugees and to resettle them across the EU. Should those Syrian refugees subsequently decide to apply and be granted EU citizenship those same Syrians, now EU citizens would have the right to the live in the UK. That should concern us.

Uk has an opt out and maintains control of its own borders.

It has an opt out of Schengen. It does not have control of its borders. Any EU citizen has the right to come and live in the UK unless specifically prohibited from doing so by the Home Secretary. If the UK tried to prohibit any legally entitled EU citizen from residing in the UK it would be penalised by the ECJ. So we do not have control of our borders.

UNon EU migrants accepted by other EU countries will have no right to come to UK.
Not strictly true. The UK currently has an opt out of the EU plans to resettle migrants across the EU, but those refugees could one day be granted EU citizenship and would then be entitled to live in the UK. The non-EU refugees could come to the UK now if they can prove they already have existing family here, under the UNHCR right to be reunited with family. That has recently happened to several migrants from the Calais camp who were admitted to the UK because they proved they had family here. That should concern us.

Turks will not have visa free access to UK either unless the UK government chooses to grant it.
True. But once you are legally entitled to travel visa-free across Europe, there are many ways into the UK and no means of ensuring that visitors that come in actually go home again.

Springing

They would first have to get EU citizenship. Exactly. A long process - particularly as far as Germany is concerned. Do you really think they would then all up sticks and move to UK?

UN regulations have nothing to do with the EU. These rules will apply regardless of the referendum result. Or are you advocating UK withdrawal from the UN as well?

They would first have to get EU citizenship. Exactly. A long process - particularly as far as Germany is concerned. Do you really think they would then all up sticks and move to UK?

The amount of time takes to secure citizenship is up to the member countries at present. Some countries are already considering reducing the qualification period to as little as 2 years, so migrants can then exercise their right as full citizens to move to other countries. As English is a very widely spoken language amongst migrants I would expect they would seek to move to a country where they already spoke the language.

It's not just the building trade where wages have been depressed since the advent of mass immigration in the the UK in past decade. NHS staff have had one 1% pay rise in the past 5 years and The main reason the government can get away with what is effectively a pay cut is because so many jobs in the NHS now go to EU and non EU immigrants. The politicians harp on about how the NHS could'nt function with out immigrant labour but that's because pay and working conditions are so rubbish in the NHS now that British workers are driven abroad to have an acceptable standard of living

Springing - which countries are those then? Since migrants would need to learn the language of the host country to acquire citizenship I think you would find they would no longer have to move to reach a country whose language they spoke.

Not sure what to make of your Turkey point. Are you imagining camps of Turks in Calais? Boats across the channel? UK controls its own borders. Non EU migration will be unaffected by BREXIT - unless of course France withdraws co-operation, in which case it will get worse.

The Alchemist - the 1% pay cap applies across the public sector and is a result of the 2008 financial crisis. It is not true to say it is the result of immigration. It applies to the Armed Forces, Civil and Diplomatic Services and they are not full of EU or Non EU migrants.

"once you are legally entitled to travel visa-free across Europe, there are many ways into the UK"

Which many ways are those?

I have several South African friends resident in a Schengen country (so can move freely in most of Europe) who have to queue and spend hundreds of pounds every time they want to visit London. I'm sure they would love to know about these "many ways into the UK".

Why Europe's African citizens come to Britain
link

"Studies show that between one third and a half of the entire Dutch Somali community has moved to the UK"

Springing - which countries are those then? Since migrants would need to learn the language of the host country to acquire citizenship I think you would find they would no longer have to move to reach a country whose language they spoke.

A migrant that has been learning English since they were a child but who only recently attained a sufficient knowledge of the language of the host country in order to gain EU citizenship would naturally find it easier to work in a country where English was widely spoken.

Not sure what to make of your Turkey point. Are you imagining camps of Turks in Calais? Boats across the channel? UK controls its own borders. Non EU migration will be unaffected by BREXIT - unless of course France withdraws co-operation, in which case it will get worse.

I was pointing out that once you have gained access to the Schengen area it is relatively easy to get into the UK. I am not going to explain how but that would be likely to get me a visit from the Police. Let's just say that not all of us use airports to beam ourselves up from the UK to wherever we want to go in the world.

The Alchemist - the 1% pay cap applies across the public sector and is a result of the 2008 financial crisis. It is not true to say it is the result of immigration. It applies to the Armed Forces, Civil and Diplomatic Services and they are not full of EU or Non EU migrants.

That is true. But it could be argued that a 1% pay curb on the public sector was only possible because wage increases in the private sector had been similarity depressed, but by availability of EU migrant labour

CoteD'Azur

Did I say legally? No. I said there were many ways into the UK. I am not going to explain them to you on a public forum.

Why, do you think our eyes will fall off of their sockets if we read about them?

Any illegal method you can think of can also be sorted out without a Schengen visa.

Any illegal method you can think of can also be sorted out without a Schengen visa.

No. I said quite clearly that the methods I know of require entry to the Schengen area.

Springing : I Would still like you to tell me which EU countries are going to grant citizenship after two years residence. I have not been able to find any.

To get German citizenship at the moment you need a minimum of 7 years legal residence. After 7 years a young person will speak fluent German, have German qualifications and be able to enter the German labour market. Germany has higher wages, higher welfare standards and a health service which is far better than the NHS. Why would these people want to leave that to move to UK?

"An undercover reporter posing as an Afghan refugee was told that by wearing a waiter’s uniform he could illegally enter the UK without detection"

"a smuggler offered him three methods to get from Belgium to Britain"

link

Lagodiatitlan
Springing : I Would still like you to tell me which EU countries are going to grant citizenship after two years residence. I have not been able to find any.

Please stop misquoting me.

Look carefully at what I wrote, which was

Some countries are already considering reducing the qualification period to as little as 2 years,

I don't have a link to that piece of information that I noted and neither should I be expected to have to sprinkle each of my posts with links to everything I post. I don't demand that of other posters.

To get German citizenship at the moment you need a minimum of 7 years legal residence. After 7 years a young person will speak fluent German, have German qualifications and be able to enter the German labour market. Germany has higher wages, higher welfare standards and a health service which is far better than the NHS. Why would these people want to leave that to move to UK?

I agree, a refugee whose German were as good as his English would be unlikely to obtain a better job by moving to the UK. However, they may chose to move to the UK if they already have family here. That is one example.
But, not all countries have such stringent conditions as Germany. Finland may grant EU citizenship after 4 years to refugees. A refugee's Finnish may not be as good as their English after just 4 years, which could lead to some making the decision to seek work in the UK/Ireland where their language skills would be better suited and, again, familial ties may lead them to want to eventually settle in the UK.

The fact still remains that the qualifying period for EU citizenship is a matter for each member country and any country wishing to alleviate itself of people it referred to 'move on' could change their domestic policy and grant them EU citizenship.

We are well down into the weeds here from our starting point of AnnaForbes post Why wasn't Cameron at this meeting representing British interests?

I can see no purpose in debating the finer points of EU citizenship qualifying periods or trying to second guess whether an EU citizen would/wouldn't take up their right to settle in the UK.