Mass sexual assaults in Cologne and other European cities part III

[GeekLove]

link to part 2

Keeping this in the spotlight since the mainstream media isn't.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/10/ensure-germany-welcome-refugees-cologne-attacks

"...some refugees will get drunk on New Year’s Eve and make a whole lot of mess."

Unbelievable. We are talking about men shoving their hands into women's vaginas, robbing them, throwing explosives at them.

"I don’t want to trivialise sexual attacks."

You may not want to, mate, but you just went ahead and did just that.

Just fucking SHUT UP already.

Now, stop being racist four, you know sharia law always puts women first

hiddenhome, ' How are you going to get rid of emily and twisted Pink?'

Ugh, this reminded me of how kids used to speak to the school bully. Really, really weird.

Emily thank you for what you said about Calais. I don't want to say to much about what I was doing because I will be too recognisable to anyone who knows me- probably already am.
But it a deeply shocking place and shows how seriously dehumanising the thinking as well as treatment of refugees - other humans- is.
People from the far right do go there- they intimidate refugees and volunteers. Recently they were shining lasers through the windscreens of volunteers leaving the camp on the motorway.
I do try to think about why for that kind of horrific behaviour too. Why the far right are driven to the positions they are- where their expectation that people will be bad and dangerous comes from? I'm sure there are sad stories there too, even if obviously a different scale to those of the refugees.
I speak about the disturbance that leads to violence- but actually it is amazing how much most of them have somehow held on to an idea that there might still be humaity out there. I think that's incredible. Just hope it turns out to be true and they get the safety and security they so desperately need. It's terrible to see babies and children there, but it is also terrible to see women and men there.

I just watched the Lara Logan Breaks The Silence video linked earlier in the thread. (Thank you to the poster who linked it, I forgot the name, sorry) where she talks of her assault.

I don't have words to describe my feelings, dh had tears in his eyes, and it really takes a lot to make him cry. What a brave woman she is to speak out about what happened to her. The women who helped her by forming a barrier around her, stopping the men drag her back off again were brave too.

onthephone I'll be thinking of you on the 17th when you go the march, I hope everything goes well. I wish I could be physically there to stand alongside the women of Germany. (Sorry if it wasn't you who mentioned the march, the thread is too big to find the post and I have got names muddled up)

You should watch who you're calling weird 'emily'.

I have autism

You having a go at disabled people? Tut, tut, that's as bad as being racist isn't it?

Final thing Emily

"The issues are very complex but I think we need to see people first and foremost as individuals and not just as an ethnicity or representation of a culture."

The men in Cologne did not act as individuals but as a mob cowardly blending in with their large group of testosterone driven drunken and disgusting mates.

Come on, you know perfectly well what we are trying to say and do here, it's a pity that someone as articulate and well-memaing towards the dispossessed as you present yourself to be refuses to question the silencing of women in this context.

I have a long post I didn't post instead of a previous sarcastic comment. I almost wish I had posted it. But am beginning to feel that it is pointless. But having had 3 hours sleep in the last 3days I am too grumpy to not do so.

To point out that culture and society norms impacts how individual acts is to be called racist and to be told it is missing the point of the situation. I disagree with this.

The report on rape I watched the other night highlighted so many factors about culture and society norms that impact on this behaviour. It was not looking at immigrants but natives in their home country. It was horrifying.
The fact that rape was considered the norm, the fact that it wasn't reported as reports weren't dealt with, the fact that the rapists family were given them money so they could bribe the victims' parents (yes they were raping children) not to go to the police, or the fact that the parents were so destitute that they took the bribe to ensure that the family could eat and survive. It was NOT that rape was seen as acceptable by everyone, just enough for it to become a norm in that area. The man who basically said on the report he raped a 2yr it was his right because she was here and he was looking after her. He is not going to change his mind. He is not being stopped. If he were to relocate he would not see that there was an issue with this because it has never been challenged. If that is the case than we need to deal with the fact that they have not been challenged and that society has allowed it to happen. It is not being racist. It is taking into account the full situation. In this situation just locking up the individuals on its own does not stop the rapes. You also need to deal with the compensation for rape issue, the fact that some feel that they are so destitute that they need to accept this and take the bribe money. You need to deal with the fact that the expectation of what is acceptable faulty. To say that the cultural background and society plays not part in the discussion of what has happen is (as a previous poster put it) not protecting anyone and putting everyone at harm. Not every rapist comes from this situation, not everyone who comes from this situation is a rapist. But society norms will influence behaviour and opinions of individuals. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

2♀16

NIght night

It's inspiring how you talk about the hope, Twisted. There seem to be so many barriers in place to them having a safe and normal life, but I hope it is possible one day.

You are right, it is sad that any of them are there. None of them deserve to be treated like that.

And that is before you take into account these very valid points

*It really doesn't. All you need is a perception of state destablisation, a few instances of violence, and people start picking up guns like no tomorrow

Not to mention some drugs, alcohol, too few police and a belief that you're surrounded by a few hundred slags who have it coming to them*

You have to look at all the factor to make a change and have the change be effective..

Werk we disagree about people. But I don't think there is always a specific trauma that makes people violent -no. I think there is a complex combination of factors and these vary from person to person.
Antisocial personality disorder - what used to be called being a psychopath- is highly linked to extremely disturbing experiences in early childhood. People always cite all the many many people who have bad experiences and don't do terrible things and of course most don't. Which is why it is a combination of factors- internal and external. And that does not in any way rule out the influence of culture and social deterrents etc.

Babies and small children's brains change in response to their experiences. So some become much more reactive and aroused- hyper alert and ready to respond because they anticipate danger- due to their past experiences- even when there is no danger present. These children are more likely to struggle at school and to be aggressive because the are continually expecting attack. They can be helped - and the brain can make some amazing recovery. But just punishing or frightening these children is the worst thing you can do for them if you want to help them grow into healthy and safe adults.

For those people who you think are just bad, do you think they were born that way?

All the lovies in Calais

Werksallhourz very well said brilliant.

I have just had a fascinating discussion with a colleague. He is Indian and Muslim. He left Islam about 7 years ago. He is now a part of a secret (?) (his word) group of ex-muslims.

Our discussion was basically about the issues on this thread.
He said that Islam is a completely misogynistic religion. We came to agreement that ALL religions are misogynistic (I am Catholic).
He basically said that in discussion, attack the ideology, not the person. I wonder whether he works in MNHQ in his spare time?
As an aside, which I find amusing, his father doesn't mind him leaving the Muslim faith, but he must get married lol.

He is 31 now.

I asked him about women. He doesn't believe in marriage.
Yet, he has had about 15, 5 minute 'dates' with the prospective wives and their parents. He then has to provide a detailed reason as to why it would not work out....

Hilarious conversation. Until we were interrupted!
Funny guy.

Get him on here Wilde!

I was trying to, until we were rudely interrupted! I kept mentioning this 'discussion I'm on............' (think Catherine Tate).

Fascinating guy. I was just about to ask about the excuses he had to give to the 15 girls' parent's when I was interrupted.
Such a funny guy.

Give him the info about where to find this place and let's hear his views. Perhaps tomorrow now as it's so late.

I will.
In real life he is somehow very soothing? Does that make sense? He rarely speaks, but then can engage in an hour long discussion. He relaxes me just being in his presence. I told him I want to join his ex Muslim group, being a lapsed Catholic - I felt we might have a lot in common. He laughed at me.
Think I have a wee crush on him. In my dotage.
God help the 15 wee lasses he had to reject with an essay.

Lol he sounds great

Twisted You do not seem to realise how culturally and experientially specific your beliefs about violence are.

What I am saying is that, no, there doesn't need to be a complex combination of factors, there doesn't need to be disturbing experiences in childhood ... there doesn't need to be bloody anything. A great many people will commit violence because they find themselves in a time and place where they can commit violence with no retribution and/or they get a perceived reward for it and/or they are asked to do it by a higher authority.

But, seemingly, you can't accept this. I would suggest you can't accept this because you have never experienced anything that challenges your views. You have never seen how violent "ordinary" people can get if you put them in certain circumstances.

I find it very telling that you then talk about psychopathy and babies and small children's brains anticipating danger, as though the hundreds of thousands of people that committed violence against civilians in the 20th century must have had extremely disturbing experiences in early childhood. I suspect it suits you to think this way, because the alternative that there need be no reason at all, or a reason of financial advantage, or because someone they respect appreciates the violence or simply because they could get away with it frightens you beyond belief.

I want to bring your attention to something that I feel is very important when discussing this issue. It mirrors the experiences and beliefs of both my family, my DH's family and other survivors of conflict I have met (and I spent time in Bosnia in the late 90s). They are the words of Toivi Blatt who was interned at Sobibor as a youth.

"People ask me, ‘What did you learn?’ And I think I’m only sure of one thing – nobody knows themselves. The nice person on the street, you ask him, ‘Where is North Street?’ and he goes with you half a block and shows you, and is nice and kind. That same person in a different situation could be the worst sadist. Nobody knows themselves. All of us could be good or bad people in these situations. Sometimes, when somebody is really nice to me, I find myself thinking, ‘How will he be in Sobibor?’

Interview with Laurence Rees

Great post, Werks.

On the original thread it was obvious it had been hijacked by people joining MN to deliberately post ugly and inflammatory remarks yet the posts were deemed ok by the more vocal of posters because they were in line with much of what was being said. I challenged it and was shouted down yet MNHQ did go on to suspend accounts after investigation the posters I reported. I was told they also suspected sock-puppeteering was going on.

And now we have two posters posting a different point of view to the majority and people think its ok to challenge them and say they're trolls.

It very much seems that someone is only a troll etc if you don't agree with the party line. But if you do agree with the party line, regardless of how ignorant and offensive you are when voicing your opinion, you're ok, you're not a troll - even when you are.

Double standards much.

Werk, what a quotation.

Ive been avoiding this news story for a bit as it just seemed too horrifying to contemplate .

Womens rights always come last

It is highly hypocritical of the right to claim they care about women while cheering on and voting for the cuts to tax credits and decimation of social housing which makes it even harder for a woman to leave an abusive partner.