Mass sexual assaults in Cologne and other European cities part III

[GeekLove]

link to part 2

Keeping this in the spotlight since the mainstream media isn't.

I don't know who was sock-puppeting on the other thread Sansoora and hadn't spotted it. I thought there was a range of views well expressed and debated by both sides on those whereas this last one has been tedious in the extreme due to some posters continually dragging the debate over the same ground again and again.

As a white middle-class woman in a very provincial area I have never faced many of the challenges other posters have but, after the first thread, felt motivated to write to my MP using the template one poster suggested in an effort to protect the rights of women. After this thread I think I will probably not bother because I think any efforts to effect any improvements will be pointless.

I'm nearly home and then will go to bed. You are wrong about what experience I have but I appreciate you can't know that. Although it is absolutely true that I have not experienced anything even faintly like the refugees have myself.

I could find papers if you are really interested that show how even the epigenetics of babies born to second and third generations of war victims are different to those whose grandparents haven't experienced trauma. I see no evidence of this relating to some war torn refugees and not others.

But according to your view, why would any two people who have had the same experiences behave differently- how would anything ever change? Why would one attack and another hold back? You surely can't think everyone in North Africa is absolutely identicle in how they behave? The fact that you think it is dependent on what is allowed, encouraged or prohibited already is in line with what I am saying about conditions. I think your view does not make sense and it is not my experience- because there would be no movement.

It's interesting that you think I think the way I do because it's safer- I think strongly the opposite! - that it is much easier to see things as good or bad and simply. It makes life (in some ways) feel easier. You don't have to struggle with the fact that people can be mixed. In a world where there are just goodies and baddies, you can think that if you just stop the baddies and make them go away then everything will be safe again. Its painful to think and really take in that someone who murders or hurts others may be just as complex and human as the rest of us. It is uncomfortable because we would rather not know that - and not realise that we also have sadistic or destructive potential. There would be situations - depending on our internal resources, that would break us and make us behave in ways we would rather not know about.

Perhaps in the thread I have given an over-simplified presentation of my thoughts- I don't think we can just know the conditions and make things stop. I think obviously it is much much more complicated than that.

And it is hard to feel hopeful about significant change any time soon.

Calm, for the most part the thread was as you describe a range of views well expressed and debated by both sides

It was just a shame about the rest.

Stop patronising people. You have no idea what experiences the people on this thread have had. To be honest I couldn't care less what your thoughts are on the matter, over-simplified or not. Sorry, I don't imagine judging by your other posts that they're particularly important or useful. You did minimise these assaults and to someone who has been a victim of sexual assaults in the past its quite offensive.

Calm

I hope you do write your letter! Weight of numbers is the only thing which will make them take notice, I think.

Please show me where I have minimised any assaults?

I personally pointed it out to you earlier. You did precisely the same as Gaby Hinsliff did in the Guardian, and got much the same response when you first posted it last night.

sansoora, yes well I agree with you in as far as people shouldn't be called trolls because they're not agreeing with the majority. But you rather undermine your own argument by suggesting that those you disagree with are trolls and making statements that you can't possibly back up (people joining specifically to post on this subject). Has it ever occurred to you that, y'know, a lot of people just disagree with you? I think your argument is a bit silly, you're admitting that you don't like other people disagreeing with you and saying you think they're trolls and reporting them. But now you're complaining about other people doing the same thing? I think the double standards may be your own. Perhaps if you don't like twisted and emily being called trolls (which I don't think they are) you might start by offering the same courtesy to others? Just a thought.

Bill, thank you. I'll give it some thought.

Hidden

Emily, Twisted-we can discuss generalised forms of abuse against women and the coercive sexualization of their lives. Let's start here: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3391501/Crown-judge-rule-sharia-cases-court-set-hardline-cleric-led-demonstration-against-Charlie-Hebdo.htm

Now, stop being racist four, you know sharia law always puts women first

I just thought, Hidden that we could remove the cultural/immigration element from the discussion as Twisted and Emily suggested and indeed focus on the everyday, generalised sexually coercive violence that women have to cope with. So, let's then discuss how a 63 year old man wanted the hymen of his 23 year old wife to be repaired so that he could sell her back in his country of origin to another man so that he could get a visa to the UK. The man who wanted the operation became intensely angry, when his request was denied, claiming that doctors in his town, not far from London, frequently undertake this operation under another name.
'The man who asked for this operation said that he earned about £10,000 for effecting this arrangement, which was very helpful as he was unemployed'.

So, all I've done is taken out the immigration aspect so that we can truly just focus on the sexual violence part - the digits in vaginas, presumably coercively, women being shuffled about through space by men, all done for the benefit of the man rather than the woman.

Werkz, I agree.
I'd add that when people find themselves in a culture in which violence is in general normalised, and against certain groups is actually acceptable, they are more likely to let rip than they would otherwise. This was demonstrated very clearly during World War II by e.g. Japanese army in Asia: it is pretty widely accepted in the academic literature that the culture of violence in the Japanese army itself, and the prevailing attitude at the time amongst Japanese that they were special and other people were not, led to huge abuses.

I think people can make the connections for themselves. It must be terrible to be a woman in Syria at the moment.

How convenient the news can now focus on something else and oh the irony of it all.

Good morning,

Why is its socially acceptable to be openly misogynist? Think about nasty porn, everyday sexism etc.

Why is it socially unacceptable to be xenophobic?

Emily et al. If you replaced the your accusations of 'racist' with 'xenophobic' I think we could have a more reasonable discussion of course that is not your intent.

But 'racist' is a much better slogan isn't it? 'Xenophobic'... who even knows what that is? So rather use an incorrect term to promote an ideology. Spin.

I doubt that many people in the established, hard working, law abiding ethnic communities in the UK are terribly keen on an uncontrolled stream of migrants from the ME.....

Germany is now waking up to its utter failure for an ordered asylum process.

www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/kriminalitaet/gefaehrliche-koerperverletzung-unbekannte-attackieren-auslaender-in-koeln-14007490.html

20 right wing men chased 6 Pakistanis.

This is a predictable result if politicians and the Media refuse to report honestly. The far right takes matters into their own hands.

I'm with you on everything wilde except when you call me (and others) stupid for being alarmed at the media coverage. No, I'm not just thinking of the Guardian, but also the Independent, and, worst of all, the BBC. Until now, I haven't been looking at other papers - no time, for a start.
I, personally, find the reporting in those papers, which goes beyond mere bias, deeply disturbing. If the left-wing media won't engage in this story, the right-wing will gain support.

This reminds me off the joke in the USA: "The facts have a well-known left leaning bias!"
Feels like the reverse here. Reporting in the Times and Telegraph has been much better.

"I could find papers if you are really interested that show how even the epigenetics of babies born to second and third generations of war victims are different to those whose grandparents haven't experienced trauma. I see no evidence of this relating to some war torn refugees and not others."

Twisted - so there must be huge numbers of people all over Europe today whose epigenetics are different thanks to the appalling suffering of First World War. Those who fought in that war were affected for the rest of their lives and many never recovered from she'll shock and other trauma.
I would be interested to hear your views on this.

Re the media, I suggest reading the European press to understand what is really happening with our neighbours.

There have been several excellent links on these threads.

All online, google translate if you don't have the languages.

At last, we are seeing the Guardian's sinister Orwellian colours.

Could I repeat my suggestion from earlier?

Could we do a Guardian campaign, shaming their covering on the topic?

Also I asked upthread:

"What do you all think Justine makes of this thread? Or MN towers for that matter? I find it odd that Emily and twister's shenanigans have been left to go for so long, as have dozens of troll hunting posts gone unchallenged. Also, as was suggested upthread, thread II and III are not linked to in the In the News section nor did the threads feature in active convos (as far as a'm aware).

Adjusts tinfoil hat: Isn't Justine married to Ian Katz, former deputy editor of The Guardian?

I apologise for posting twice but am really interested in what others think about the 'hiding' of these threads. Thank you.

In the afttermath of NYE, The Swedish press have admitted not reporting a series of assaults (seemingly by young solo refugees) in a public concert crowd this summer. Despite a police tip off and eyewitness the journalist thought it not worth investigating as it felt like a right wing plot. (What happened to investigative journalism, or even keeping an open mind?)

The police in turn have admitted they dealt with incidents at the time but did not think it a good idea at the time to dwell on them, in particular who the perpetraters were ( in the main, no doubt there were non refugee chances too!) So there was no briefing of the press, again their pr message was everything passed of fine in the main.

Daftness.

well, MN still haven't come to a decision about whether we can have a representative from the Guardian or/and BBC to do a webchat (you would have thought they'd have enough contacts). perhaps they're waiting for it to blow over.

Yes, the threads have all featured in Active Convos whilst they were active (it's how I navigate to them).

Yes, the currently active one shows on the 'In The News.

No locked threads ever feature, so it's always only the current thread.

Olive - some European media outlets were just as guilty of self-censorship on this issue.

The stance that media outlets have taken on this has been driven by their particular political stance. Ranging from rabid right wing headlines reflecting anti-EU, anti-immigration stance to a lefty denial that immigrants were even involved in any significant way.

Balanced reporting on such a divisive issue is hard to find. In my view it will take several years for the true picture to emerge of what really happened on NYE in Cologne.

I am not saying by the way that it should have been front page news , it is not like Cologne which was a mass breakdown in law and order.

But only that police should be less shifty and news should be reported. Otherwise conspiracy theories will fill the void.

They could tbh have reported the incidents without reporting the race. Eg During this event there was this issue X (eg assult/attacks by gangs) we have tackled this by Y (eg arrested people) or z (eg we are looking for people with information). Whilst we are dealing with this situation please take extra steps to be safe (ie NOT gender specifics)

It they had done this then people would be less angry and they still would have ignored the issue of race that was the excuse for not publicising.

thank you stella.