Mass sexual assaults in Cologne and other European cities part III

[GeekLove]

link to part 2

Keeping this in the spotlight since the mainstream media isn't.

Well said Bill

"The idea seems to be that these men are more of a threat than non migrant or non Arab men. There doesn!t seem to be the same level of horror for other kinds of sexual violence. I don't get that."

Emily You really don't get why people are scared and horrified at the thought of hundreds of men gathering in a public space for the express purpose of assaulting women with no care for the law? Horrified that the police apparently did little to stop it? Horrifed that women are being asked to modify their behaviour to prevent being attacked? Really?

When was the last time something on this scale happened in a European city?

No one is blaming all migrants for the actions of a few. But there are cultural issues which need examining if we are to live side by side with people whose cultural context is not the same as ours. I'm not sure why you are trying to hard to deny that. It's quite something to behold.

The reason the Rotherham crimes were hushed up, literally, for so long was in large part because no one wanted to open that can of worms. That is not an acceptable response.

emily

Believe me I am horrified at all sexual violence, whoever commits it. I'm a rape survivor who has experienced multiple less serious sexual assaults including being forcibly digitally penetrated on more than one occasion, it would be rather odd if i wasn't. Don't be so fucking sanctimonious and patronising. You have no idea about the people on this thread.

So, we're not allowed to talk about the culture of the Catholic Church which allowed abuse to take place? We just have to refer to it as 'generic sex abuse by some persons who shall remain nameless' catholic priests didn't feature at all? They're just nameless, featureless, identityless people?

Yes, that's really going to help people to identify the perpetrators isn't it?

Only by identifying and naming can you address the issue.

If there's a problem within a group, then there's a problem within that group. No amount of not talking about it is going to change that. In fact, as others have so rightly said, it just results in cover ups.

There's a problem within the Catholic Church - but not all priests are paedophiles.

There's a problem within the Islamic culture - not all Muslims are wife beaters or terrorists though.

There's a problem within the entertainment industry - not all entertainers are paedophiles or drug abusers however.

There's a problem within banking - not all bankers are psychopaths.

There's a problem with gangs in Mexico - not all Mexicans are drug lords though

There. That's not so difficult is it? All these groups have been identified as being problematic within a society. What's wrong with naming the problem?

At the end of thread two we were making plans. People were talking of MP/MEP emails and social media. Anyone want to see that through or do you want to keep going round the roundabout?

No hiddenhome, that is not the level of debate on here. The entire culture is largely being viewed as a problem. All countries viewed as Islamic are being discussed here often as though they are the same, with no thought to differences. The group is being viewed as the problem. That is very different to viewing a problem within a group.

People have derailed the thread the plans became lost in the derailment.

I don't know whether writing and stuff will help, but I'm probably wrong. I'm just a miserable cynic and not the best person to ask.

Tomorrow is another day and plans can be drawn then I would think.

I honestly have no idea of what you're talking about mackerel person

Swim off with your slippery words and meanings 🐟

Polenta, 'Better watch out for the hangover tomorrow, don't trip over your halo. May you offer your vagina to a few of them as recompense?'

You say you care about women and the rape of women and you speak to them like this? Vile.

This thread is not like the other two.

I would like to progress, if anyone wants to join me great. If not, I will slope off.

Vertigo. Agreed. Lets move this forwards and stop the derailing.

Tomorrow is another day and plans can be drawn then I would think.

Agree. I'm going to call it a night. Definitely, this time! Hope that impetus isn't lost though. If the terminally PC have their way and we can't discuss cultural issues the far right will control this narrative by default.

Noone derailed the thread. They didn't agree with you. Do you come on here and expect everyone to agree with you? On a thread about women's freedom those disagreeing with you are 'derailing'? Comical really.

Emily is that to me? I have no beef with anyone. I have not uttered a word in your direction. I just want to move things back to where we were at the end of thread two.

Sorry no, to hiddenhome, not you.

Venus, you do know what pc means? It's about treating people equally, it's not a bad thing.

Oh do fuck off dear. You don't actually seem to care about the issue which is the most are worried about. The fact that is seem totally acceptible to tell women to be expected to be raped and molested if they don't accomendate people with different opinions. Sorry I disagree. NO women should feel like rape or molestation is a social norm. Not in Germany, Not in Africa. Not anywhere. But change can come one small step at a time. So lets start in a country where it is supposed to be considered unacceptible and stop it being changed. Success there can help move thing on in other countries to. Slowly, slowly.

PC bloody well does not mean treating people equally. It means not upsetting people. But you know what sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade whether it is liked or not for the situation to be changed for the better.

PC is a bad thing when people are too scared to say anything and it results in people getting hurt physically, mentally and emotionally as a result.

Equality was perhaps what you meant. But PC and equality are not the same thing.

I'm using it in the very well known and understood common usage sense of the phrase, emily. Where people do something a bit dumb purely as a knee jerk reaction because they're scared of offending minority groups or being perceived as a bigot. Like in Rotherham. HTH.

YesEinstein. When have I said it shouldn't be talked about it? I haven't. I have said that a large proportion of people shouldn't be blamed for what a few do. Do you blame all white men when a white man rapes someone?

Swearing just says you can't really articluate a response that isn't bigoted.

Its all well and good talking about treating people equally but somehow I feel that if the ethnicities were reversed you would have no problem calling people out for their behaviour and acknowledging that their cultural identity is in fact an issue.

You are trying and failing to shut down this discussion by insinuating that we are all racists, yet you are failing to come up with examples of this besides the few posts that did cross a line and have largely been ignored.

Again, the vast majority of posters here are not saying that all Muslim men are a threat.

twisted - how exactly is the erosion of our rights going to help women -or indeed anyone - in the rest of the world?
And if that is the case - these are angry, disturbed young men - surely we should be curtailing their freedom? Trying to sort out their mental state before allowing them to mix with general population? 50% of the population have the right to freedom - it is not right that a tiny percentage of the other 50% should lead that 50% being put effectively under curfew for their own safety.

emily First -why is this so shocking? ... different? Can you really not see?
This is akin to a series of gang rapes - in public, on the street. One of these types of rapes would make the news -would horrify us - look for reasons and a common denominator. Worse in this case there were lots and they seemed to be coordinated. And the sheer numbers meant it was out of control - the police were ineffective, the women and even accompanying men were powerless to stop it. I don't think similar has happened in the EU in living memory - correct me if I'm wrong.
If these kinds of attacks had been carried out predominantly by any group of any shared nationality/race/background we would need to question why? We would be wrong not to - if we can't understand the motivation/reasoning for something we can't prevent it.
If it was carried out by groups of young white men we would be questioning maybe if it was feeling of being redundant/lack of purpose or exposure to porn or similar. There would be a degree of generalising.
And some of the motivation - as backed up by other posters experiences and also by cases such as Rochdale and Rotherham - seems likely to be the attitude in certain cultures to women - especially Western women.
(And ties in with the experience of female refugees being raped/abused in detention centres/in camps)

I said on the previous thread my long term partner is North African/Arab born in the EU (Muslim although not practising). I know his family background - eg his father's attitude toward his mother etc and I have met and been friends with a lot of other North African/Arab men. Quite a few immigrants - most who came here illegally- some that worked illegally under fake ID whilst waiting for their (justified I believed) aslyum claims to be processed (that's another story). I also know that a lot of similar immigrants (including one I was friends with younger brother) 'worked' as pick pockets in the West End.
So actually I do have quite a good insight into the minds of these men. And the cultures they come from. And their general views on women. They always treated me with the utmost respect -but sadly I can't say that about every white -in fact every - woman they came across. I think sometimes they forgot I was a woman - if that makes sense.
And I also said I know someone who lived in the ME -who said the worse the living conditions etc got, the more powerful the extremists become, the stricter the rules -the worst the attitude to women is.
The Taliban and Daesh now make women completely cover up, won't let them go out unaccompanied, won't let them work. They force them into marriage - or rape them - they treat them as worthless. These are the kinds of backgrounds these men are coming from -or rather have been exposed to recently.
I don't like any religion - but there is nothing in the Koran to say women have to be more than modestly dressed - it says the same for men. Alcohol is banned - these men were reported as being drunk. Sex before marriage is frowned upon - except for the infidels who can be treated as sex slaves (seems men can conveniently forget the bit about being pure when it suits them) etc etc
I agree this is not Islam this is a misogynistic interpretation of Islam that has become normalised in large parts of the world...and we need to confront that too.
Now I agree with the others - lets carry on with the plans to do something constructive tomorrow...

I think we should take in more male refugees as I believe the offenders do not represent the majority.

Look, emily, your view is technically correct, inasmuch as a majority would be 51% and if 51% of the male refugee population of Germany were out causing trouble at night there would be no police on the streets, it would be the German army, guns in hand, amid a curfew.

But what you are seeing now is what a small few envisaged months ago when the picture of a dead child washed up on a beach made the headlines. Compassion ruled, people were seeing drowning children everywhere and were blind to the reality that the vast majority of people making their way to Europe were adult males with a view of a future for themselves that did not exist.

This is a social process, one I hope government has very good advisors on. Things roll in this order: compassion, shock, anger, fear. The process has moved past compassion and is now part shock, part anger. It will keep rolling. What happens after fear could be terrible. Unless things are done with great urgency by European leaders disturbing things will take root in popularist thinking. Social stability could be damaged via the democratic process and create a feedback-loop. At the moment things are still very plastic, but once winter passes the train will pick up speed and there are at best a few months left for leaders to get a much better handle on this.

I have followed these threads from the start, and I think by and large they have been extremely balanced, and I say this as someone who tends to have very left-wing views and always call out blatant anti-Muslim rhetoric.

The people now jumping up and down and calling racism are doing exactly that the Guardian et al have been guilty of over the last few days, which has so angered and pissed people off.

I have complete respect for the fact that cultures differ, religions differ, and people have the right to peacefully express their culture and religion in a law-abiding context - but DON'T turn up to a country, commit crimes like serious sexual assault en masse an then expect some sort of cultural understanding. Bollocks to that. Because when the chips are down, it's women's rights first as far as I'm concerned.
Clearly the authorities in Germany have no such concerns, having been quite happy to attempt to cover up the mass sexual assaults of their citizens.

As thorny an issue as this is, it needs to be dealt with for the sake of any innocent asylum seekers as well as the women of Europe. Otherwise the racial/cultural tensions will ratchet up till they explode. This cannot be left to the right-wing to deal with.
My friends and I are all left-wing people who consider ourselves compassionate, and we are appalled by what has happened.

And actually, if someone sexually assaults a woman, I would happily see them deported back to a war zone, I really don't give a fuck what risks they face there, they have blown it.
Just can't get over the rudeness and ingratitude of attacking the people of a host country like that.

It's relevant to discuss employment-related issues; employment tends to be the best way of integrating newcomers into any society. If you have large numbers of young men drifting around without working, you are likely to get more problems (values, religious extremism etc.).

"I think we should take in more male refugees as I believe the offenders do not represent the majority."

I don't think the majority of refugees would do this either, but the world is not neatly divided into "sexual assailants/jihadists" vs "nice left-wing people with liberal values on gay marriage and sexual autonomy."

More refugees will almost certainly mean a gradual drift towards more reactionary values on a range of things; more negative attitudes towards abortion, more no-go areas for gay men, more cat-calling and harassment for lone women in public spaces.

If you believe that that is an okay price to pay for assisting some (undoubtedly) desperate people right now, then okay, fine--that is a valid point of view to have.

But I wish people could be a bit more honest about the fact that yes, there almost certainly IS a trade-off between humanitarian acts of kindness vs maintaining liberal values in our society in the long-run.