Mass sexual assaults in Cologne and other European cities part III

[GeekLove]

link to part 2

Keeping this in the spotlight since the mainstream media isn't.

you may be right polent. But that is after spending time in the calais camp with utterly desperate children, women and men and working in my day job with very vulnerable people.

Twisted, are you seriously suggesting that we don't care about those people?

TwistedReach - our first concern is always to our own family unit. When the safety of that unit is threatened, we retreat and protect. When that unit is safe, we can look outside of the unit to protect others.

If you expect me to care more about a little boy somewhere in a war zone, ABOVE my own daughter, then I suspect you don't have children.

polenta

nighty night, hope the thread gets back to being productive.

.

Oh, and I have asd, I don't do empathy

Emily/Twisted the sort of thinking you are espousing is exactly the sort of thinking that's let abuse like this continue in numerous cases, from Savile to Rotherham. You believe that one specific group (which is involved in abuse) should be immune from scrutiny over that abuse as a group because you are ascribing that group with a unique privilege.

It was the same with Savile and Cyril Smith. In their time rich powerful politically connected white men where seen as unassailable, and their interests prioritised above the poorer, underprivileged children they abused.

The same with Catholic priests (esp in Ireland), they and the interests of the church were seen as being far more important than the suffering of a few children.

Ditto Rotherham. The interests of a minority group were seen as far too important for anyone to bother with a few worthless children.

The press and government organisations who tried to hush this up are exactly the same as all the organisations who have done this in the past. But in this case it didn't work because of social media and the current high interest in these sort of subjects. But believe me, they would have hushed it up in the same way given half a chance.

The reason why these cases went on for so long is because people who shared the same attitudes as you wanted to suppress that the groups involved were involved because they saw those groups as more important than the people they abused. People didn't discuss the influential, the priests or anyone else because they wanted to protect their interests. You don't want this discussing in terms of migrants because you prioritise their interests above the victims. It's that simple.

When we say that there were problems with privileged white men in the 70s and 80s, or Catholic priests, we don't need to point out that not all PWM or CP were abusers. But we can accept that the culture surrounding the cases (both of the abusers and the authorities) meant that there was an environment were a particular group of abusers were allowed to operate with a lack of sanction. And that's really what you would like to create here, people looking the other way and ignoring the fact that there is a problem within a particular group because that group is too important.

And I have to say, none of the previous cases led to an entire continent of women being told to stay in after dark, cover up, stay away from strangers and 'adopt a code of conduct'.

Your attitude is dangerous.

Theydont- who's we? I don't think this is a homogenous group.
Polent your last post is nonsensical and vile in equal measure. I don't actually think that matters massively in the great scheme of things. But may be worth noting that if you were a muslim man who asked me if I thought my vagina should be offered , it would be seen very differently.

Excellent post bill.

Well said Bill

Great post Bill's Dog.

Hands Bill a single malt

Good post Bill

Twisted, that's very sanctimonious. Of course people care that refugees have a shit time. You know nothing about the other posters on this thread, I've done voluntary work for a human trafficking campaign, for example. But this issue needs to be looked at in depth, and dealt with, for the safety of women and girls. Don't you think we deserve a bit of consideration too? In my opinion, your approach does nothing, it's just pointless handwringing.

I made some direct points in response to things you have said, which you haven't bothered to respond to, because it looks to me like you're more concerned with calling other posters racists. I'm clocking off tonight now. Night.

Yes Emily the fact that I swore is the single most germane thing in this discussion of thousands of posts to which I have contributed extensively and proves that I'm not in favour of women's freedom and am just as bad as a rapist, really.

There isn't anything I haven't already said ( and many others) so I'm not bothering to respond to you. If I wanted hypocritical self-loathing fake liberal waffle I can get that in the Guardian.

Unlucky

'I am however extremely concerned about mass, possibly organised, sexual assaults on women in several cities carried out by men of N african/Arabic appearance'. It is right to be concerned, understandable, normal etc. It is also right to be appalled and horrified by all attacks public and private. The idea seems to be that these men are more of a threat than non migrant or non Arab men. There doesn!t seem to be the same level of horror for other kinds of sexual violence. I don't get that.

Then, it is the tarring them all the with the same brush thing. 'Their culture','their countries.' Even though some people argue that they don't view these men as all the same, know they don't all think like that etc, there are silmultaneous arguments which seem to lump a lot of people together, which generalise. Then there is the position that if a tiny amount of refugees have attacked people, then the majority of them should be kept out or that stricter measures will have to be put in place, which seems drastic when the amount of offenders is so small.

Looking for answers is fine, looking to culture is fine, it is the generalisations I am talking about, the demonising of what I can't even call a whole culture because it is disparate and confusing and not as simple as it may seem.

Being concerned about non reports is understandable and enrages me too. I think it was underreported and there were concerns about racial tensions being stoked. I DIDN'T like the article in the Guardian where she said their anger was understandable. I have heard nothing but how grateful Syrian families have been, how they thanked my partner for helping them. They weren't angry. The article also presumed that these men were angry because they were bottom of the pile. Refugees from Syria are often the ones wealthy enough to get out so I thought this showed an ignorance of who many refugees really are.Most of them have their own mobile phones! Syrian refugees are often not poor, they run from war, not poverty.

To be honest, maybe even attacks by white men are covered up to an extent or misrepresented.

'I am even more concerned that the response was to advise women to keep themselves safe by not going out at night etc - that they should change their behaviour because the state could no longer protect them'. THIS. I am appalled by this. It was wrong and it is a terrifying and shameful response. ALL attacks should be treated with outrage, attackers should be come down on hard. Always, wherever they are from. Everyone should abide by the laws of the land.

'a culture that has misogynistic tendencies and does seem to have a less than savoury attitude to western women - I am extremely concerned and worried for my daughter's future.' I think you generalise about the culture here. I think elements of it may be misogynistic as are elements of other cultures.

I don't think our freedoms will be curtailed. I think we should take in more male refugees as I believe the offenders do not represent the majority. This is where we differ. The numbers the UK are taking are vastly lower than those Germany took. Present immigration rules in the UK bar most of the refugees. I don't think the numbers entering the UK will significantly alter society.

I suppose with me it's looking at the aspects of a society without generalising. It's balancing kindness with pragmatism. It's looking at an immigration system that isn't fair and allows people to drown.

Can't be arsed engaging with you anymore, twisted, you talk utter mince

Thank you, BillSykesDog.

Bill, well said. I'm Irish and it's a good analogy. Power is power, whether it's "hard" (control of finances, resources, institutions) or "soft" (control of public discourse through ideology) and the silencing of sex abuse victims was the result of that though the circumstances are/were very different.

Feminists Love Islamists

BillSykesDog. No. I know someone who was abused by them. I have seen a social worker try to blame it on them and not the attackers. I think they should have all been arrested much sooner and I have never denied the seriousness of sex crimes or excused them. What I have said is not to generalise about cultures and have the expectation that 'they will all do that.' I don't believe that they should be immune from scrutiny. But demonising many people for the actions of the few is wrong. I would never suppress the voice of someone abused. You are making a lot of assumptions. Abuse is silenced in many communities. Look how many times Shy Keenan was sent away when she told people and blamed for it. The person I know was blamed in a similar way, as if she was promiscuous and responsible for what the people that groomed her had done to her.

'And that's really what you would like to create here, people looking the other way and ignoring the fact that there is a problem within a particular group because that group is too important'.

I would like people to stop blaming all refugees, migrants, or people of Arabic or N African appearance for what a few did. Nothing more sinister than that.

demonising many people for the actions of the few is wrong. I would never suppress the voice of someone abused.
So why are you apparently agreeing with the fact that this should not be talked about because it might be against the rights of the rapest and molesters?

I couldn't give a shiny shit what race these people were. What really pisses me off is that the handling of the situation basically says that I should expect to be harrased and raped as a women because the men couldn't help themselves and I either need to change my behaviour or i am giving them giving them a reason to pick on me.

Emily - bore off fgs!

No one is blaming ALL but we are saying that there is a problem and race is being used to silence discussion. Which puts the rights of these men about the right of women to be safe.