Mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve Part II

[Pinkchampchoccies]

Just in case people want to continue discussing this.

spaceyboo I agree, Islam does afford women many inheritance and financial rights. Does this mean it is the culture that has skewed what is written in the Koran?

spacey your assertion of culture being the protagonist has been thoroughly debunked on many other threads, so I'm not going to enter into the same debate again.

Your wrong assertion however illustrates perfectly why examination and criticism of Islam is so needed.

'Thrown off which site Claig MN or Guardian?'

I don't know, HelpTheAnimalsFirst mentioned it but it sounded like MN.

2016's quote from MistressMia's post has given me an idea for something we could usefully campaign on. I know that a lot of defenders of multiculturalism in its most unthought-through forms have suggested extending the blasphemy laws in this country to cover religions other than Christianity. Could we not instead campaign for the complete repeal of the blasphemy laws? (I'd love to remove bishops from the House of Lords too - we really need to think about separating state and religion properly).

The Guardian is glowing the comments section on that article. I just went to have a read and blame, there it is. 'Thank you for your comments', with some sarky remarks underneath about how perhaps the editors are really all that thankful...

FFS. Blam, not blame.

Helpanimals- you have to remember that Islam is not really a coherent religion as such. There is a text yes, but outside of Saudi Arabia there are not many Islamic teachers who know how to read it/understand how to extrapolate the knowledge of it's religion, so they fall back on their individual cultures/spoken traditions etc to do that. Those pre-Islamic cultures are very different to each other and Saudi Arabia. For example rape-marriages used to be common in Afghanistan well before Islam and were common after even though they are illegal according to Islamic law.

The reason why Saudi is different is because there has been an unwillingness to change by the establishment (low male unemployment/engagement has meant that nobody truly wants to see more women in the workplace). Change however is very likely and will probably happen swiftly- one of the Saudi princes is a modern guy who wants to transform women's rights to western standards. Lets see what happens.

Their is a commentary piece in the Giatdian now. I thought it was really poor.

The answer is apparently in extra policing.

lurcio I thought we already had repealed the blasphemy kaws?

Repealing the blasphemy law is neither here nor there when it comes to Islam - Islam has already its own de facto blasphemy law in place through violence. It's why very few nobody criticise it currently.

Unless we start picking it apart now, such that decent muslim men and women start seeing it for the absurdity it truly is, we'll start moderating our behaviour and dress to comfort to de facto Islamic modesty norms through further Cologne type attacks.

Closing the comments section.
FFS again. My brain is fused. I am going to walk the dogs.

You are right, noeffing - d'oh, that one must have slipped under my radar while I was lost in a fog of new baby exhaustion (May 2008 - that's about right... don't think the world outside the front door existed for me at that point). Hooray... At least one positive thing I've learned from this thread. Now to get rid of bishops in the House of Lords (cracks finger joints).

Lurcio - it says 2 women's admission in court is equal to a man's. There really isn't a way to defend that except that at the time it was the only religion that allowed women to make admissions to courts. I studied that it was because there was an assumption that women would be coerced by their male family members.

i'm not saying that Islam doesnt need to change with the times - it does. Just that we cant blame the religion entirely for what it's followers do. This idiot rapists have to accept liabilty for their own crimes - not everything a muslim does is in Islam's name.

Mistressmia - I am studying Islamic law and culture as part of my Masters. This is what I'm learning and what I will be defending as part of my thesis. Have so far impressed my professors so lets see.

Whilst I am glad the police chief has resigned for the cover up, this was not solely a police problem. I should not need and the women of Europe need police protection in our towns. I just feel now there is someone to blame it is all ok and time to move on.

Spacey and Helptheanimals Other commentators differ wrt your assertions regarding gender, inheritance laws and finance:

Women
Sharia discriminates against women (and Muslim women specifically): compared to feminist victories elsewhere, women are still not considered equal in most Islamic settings. A woman's testimony is worthy half a man's in Islam. She gets half the inheritance of her male siblings; a woman's marriage contract is between her male guardian and her husband. A man can have four wives and divorce his wife by simple repudiation using the word "Talig", whereas a woman must give specific reasons, some of which are extremely difficult to prove. Child custody reverts to the father at a pre-set age, even if the father is abusive. Women who remarry lose custody of their children.
These are real issues of inequality and discrimination that Muslim women face every day. I have personally experienced some because according to the Sharia constitution in Sudan, I am only eligible for half of my brothers' share of our inheritance and I need at least two women to one man to testify in court cases.

www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2013/02/here-is-why-sharia-law-has-no-place-in-britain-or-elsewhere

People march against other unpalatable ideologies so why not this one? Not everything in a large and organised belief system is bad. Hitler thought it most unfair that less well educated and generally less privileged people who worked just as hard should earn less. While we wait for atheism to take hold, we at least need to make sure that it subscribes to English law (when in England).

"But even if it does, the answer wouldn’t be to halt immigration – even if that were possible, which it isn’t regardless of whether Britain leaves the EU – just in case a few immigrants are sexually aggressive, any more than the answer to Savile is to keep all men away from children."

I hadn't seen this bit in the Guardian article earlier and I am utterly shocked by the sheer arrogance and disgusting reference to Saville Gaby Hinsliff makes.

Sorry Pink I missed your question of 14.34 and have been out. Anyway, I think there are too many young, lone men wandering about, they have no jobs, no money and are bored, that is never a good combination in any society. The people in camps tend to be families who would be more able to settle in a new country and less likely to be out causing trouble. They are the people who really need help IMO.

BTW Luna you do realise that Twitter is an open forum for all to read don't you?

Can anyone clarify which MNetter got thrown off which site? was it the Guardian? What happened? thank you.

Winter 2014 the Law Society dropped plans to issue a practice note to solicitors which would have effectively enshrined aspects of sharia law in the uk system, in regard to the writing of Islamic wills. Women are denied an equal share of the inheritance etc.
A slippery slope, thankfully they didn't issue it but apparently many adherents to sharia/Islam thought they were about to have their medieval law incorporated into the mainstream.

We seem willing to change too much of our culture in order to be seen as fair to a vocal minority yet this makes the system unfair for many more.

are you only allowed to say what she said if you declare your identity early on to be 'that' instead of 'this'?

To MN's credit, I've not seen posters or posts ever removed simply for criticising Islam.

In contrast I'm on an effective permanent ban at the Guardian, despite commenting from an ex-muslim perspective. My account for the past 6 months has been on 'your comments are being moderated' preventing me from posting on any other article.

So I'd like to say a thank you to MN for being one of the few mainstream sites that does allow free and open discussion of subjects other sites censor.

No problem More the thread is moving ever so fast.

Going by this the 2 threads on this topic and the 6400 reader comments since this morning on the Guardian site, what is going on and the media's reaction really have hit a nerve.

Where are we at wrt possible next steps?

I feel emotional and overwhelmed. I might need to take a break and let things sink in. I have been glued to this thread and other news sites for the last few days.

To fourmummy and spaceyboo Thank you so much, greatly appreciated. Very unfair and exploitative.

We're being silenced and censored apparently.

Free speech is dead.