Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

"Turkey's drifting from Nato. It won't leave Nato, I don't think."

Why on earth would Turkey want to leave NATO?

"if you shoot down forces who are bombing ISIS you're making a fairly firm statement"

I think the statement is "If your war plane invades our air space and does not f off after 10 warnings in 5 minutes, then it will get shot", which is fair enough.

'Why on earth would Turkey want to leave NATO? '

The only point would be to be neutral in the event of a world war and not be forced to join in. But I don't think that is currently Turkey's strategy.

'Turkey aren't particular friends of the West anyway (fans booing the Paris minute silence for example) - it'll be interesting to see how far the West backs them up or whether they allow Russia to slap them down a tad....'

But that is some of the people, not the leadership and elites. The West will back Turkey 100%, Turkey could not have taken this action if the West were against it. It is possible some European countries will panic, but the leadership in the West will back Turkey 100%.

Putin has warned of 'serious consequences' (the Guardian).

Putin says plane was 1km away from Turkish airspace when it was shot down.

Noticeable that there are not many conciliatory statements about this from Turkey or NATO or any others as far as has so far been reported. It seems like they think it is not a big deal.

"they have borne the cost of defending Turkey against a Syrian attack by stationing Patriot missile batteries on Turkish territory"

I don't know who wrote that article, but it can't be someone who knows that Turkey has the 2nd largest military force of NATO after the US and does not need defending against a ground-based "Syrian attack" from a group of bandits with guns and rockets.

The author also doesn't seem to know about a place called Incirlik, where US air force has been stationed for decades. Patriot missiles are not there because they love Turks so much that they want to be protective, if anyone is wondering.

'Putin has warned of 'serious consequences' (the Guardian).'

Putin usually does the opposite of what is expected of him. They wanted Putin to intervene in Ukraine and he didn't. They didn't want him to intervene in Syria and he did. They expected more reaction over the shootdown of the Russian jet from Eqypt, but nothing much changed there.

Now the US ambassador to NATO expects Putin not to react, but I think plans will be ready if he does react.

Sorry, that may have been the former US ambassador to NATO, not the current one. I dodn't catch that on Radio 4.

I'm not sure I belive that the jet was 1km away - they are frequently flying into Scottish airspace scrambling our fighters to 'escort' them out. They do it to time our response, see where our own fighter jets come from and how long it takes us to intervene. They (the russians) are gathering data and have been for a long time.

Ohdeargawd, you are right about that.

I don't trust Putin at all. I think he is a strange man and I cant work out what he wants.

Of course Russian sources are claiming that their bomber was not in Turkish airspace.

Eventually we will find out the truth.

I expect both Russian and NATO radar and spy satellites know exactly where it was, though they may not want to publicise evidence that shows the capabilities of their technology.

You may recall that Russian sources spent some months circulating the false story that the Malysian plane MH17 was shot down by Ukrainian fighter jets. It was even planted on Mumsnet.

ohdear

But why are they doing this?

I worry there is some plan he is working on...

Just imagine for a second.

Vlad can take his shirt off, ride over to Turkey and solve it man to man (in the true Yorkshire style of shirt off in the carpark windmilling)......

Same outcome but loss of life and wealth will be minimal.

It's starting to border on the comical.

Anyone who watched last night dispatches and didn't think of John Cleese in the Life of Brain is a better person than me.

I doubt Russia will want to be seen slow to react, let's just hope there is lots of posturing but little action.

Turkey's military shared the route of the plane that was shot down. See pic from The Telegraph.

'But why are they doing this?

I worry there is some plan he is working on...'

I think it is standard procedure, not sure, and I think the West does it over Russian airspace too. I think it is about testing readiness and resolve etc.

I think the airspace infringements have been hyped in the media over the past year or two in order to acclimatise the public for possible war.

''But why are they doing this?'

It happened all the time during the Cold War by both sides but planes were usually not shot down over it. We are back in a time of increasing tension and therefore it is beginning to go back to some of the Cold War style tensions.

Ok most allies will tip their hat to aircontrol if they are going to be passing, seems in this case Russia didn't.

Still very lucky that ISIS didn't capture the pilots.

If Vlad had to watch his pilots being trooped out on YouTube (or worse) then he would be forced to act.

Have ISIS got air capabilities?
Im sure they have the planes but have they access to pilots and avi fuel?

I get confused, they want a Caliph and Caliphate but they do like their mod cons like guns...

Maybe the new Caliph embraces smartphone tech

'If Vlad had to watch his pilots being trooped out on YouTube (or worse) then he would be forced to act.'

Yes, that would have forced Putin's hand which would be dangerous for the world.

'Have ISIS got air capabilities?'

No, they have no airforce but some reports think that they do have access to sophisticated missiles that may have been handed to them.

Claig, you came to the conclusion that Turkey aren't friends with there west because some football louts 'booed at the minute silence' maybe research into that article as there were a few theories behind it.

*the west

Agree completely Cote it's not about 'defending ISIS' it's about entering peoples airspaces. Why is Russia allowed to do what they want?
Those who are saying they support Putin are seriously worrying.

'Claig, you came to the conclusion that Turkey aren't friends with there west because some football louts 'booed at the minute silence' '

No I didn't, I responded to another poster who said Turkey aren't friends with the west. I said that the football louts were only some of the people and not the Turkish elites who are friends with the West and are part of NATO etc. Turkey is 100% on the Western side. If it wasn't, it wouldn't dare shoot down a Russian jet.