Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

Claig Oh dear, I hadn't realised you're a Trumpite. I'm sorry, but Trump is a joke and it is frightening how many gun slinging red neck American's see him as their leader. FFS. How can anyone rational, normal, kind and peaceful think of him as anything other than a racist, sexist, belligerent, capitalist arsehole.

From a personal (ish) perspective, I can not stand Trump.

He came over to Ireland, bought a hotel and golf course and then 'hired' free staff under our stoopid government's 'apprenticeship programme'. Essentially he gets free staff paid for by the government. Nine months to learn to be a chambermaid or waiter? Give me a fucking break.

He is a vulture. Similar to Putin.

Ohdeargawd, did you read the quote from this American woman

"We're sick of career politicians," Marenda Babcock, 60, a Trump supporter in Indiana, said at a focus group sponsored by the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg Center last month. "We did what we were supposed to do. We wrote the letters, we made the phone calls, and they did not listen. And we're out to clean house."

www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1125-mcmanus-trump-polls-paris-20151125-column.html

Trump supporters are not all redneck gunslingers, they are the majority of Republican voters, which is why the Republican Establishment is undergoing meltdown and panic as we speak, they don't know what to do about it, their puppets have no pull with the Republican masses, they are readying million dollar advertising campaigns to try and stop Trump but they are just pouring money down the drain, just as they usually do with public taxpayer money.

Barabara Streisand supports Hillary but she sats that a Hillary-Trump battle would get the biggest TV ratings ever. There will only be one winner - the people, Trump.

'He is a vulture. Similar to Putin.'

That may explain why Trump says he thinks he will get on with Putin.

I agree that Trump goes over the top and says things he shouldn't say. But I am prepared to accept that just like millions of Americans are because it means he is not like the rest and will therefore make real changes that they will not make.

That's what's worrying.
Don't you wonder what type of changes he will make, based on what he has been saying and doing?

The latest was mocking a disabled journalist. Enough said, in my opinion.

Ups: he would, possibly, if pigs fly, make...

'Don't you wonder what type of changes he will make, based on what he has been saying and doing?'

I do, but there is no alternative for millions of Republican voters and conservatives across the planet. No real conservative wants to see yet another puppet in place, no one trusts the elite any more, that is why Trump is the favourite and is likely to remain favourite however much they spend to stop him and whatever he says.

The Trump phenomenon has got all the best minds stumped, they can't understand it, they can't understand the people. They have paid the best they have got to come up with an answer, the elite are tearing their hair out and calling up every teenage whizzkid from Harvard and Oxbridge to explain the people to them, but they still don't get it. What they have come up with is the French philosopher, Roland Barthes.

Here is an attempt to get at the truth by someone in what looks like a progressive site called ThinkProgress.

"This French Philosopher Is The Only One Who Can Explain The Donald Trump Phenomenon
...
Donald Trump has political pundits stumped.

They’ve been predicting his imminent downfall for months. Every “gaffe” that was supposed to destroy his support has only made him stronger
...
In his essay, Barthes contrasts pro wrestling to boxing.

This public knows very well the distinction between wrestling and boxing; it knows that boxing is a Jansenist sport, based on a demonstration of excellence. One can bet on the outcome of a boxing-match: with wrestling, it would make no sense. A boxing- match is a story which is constructed before the eyes of the spectator; in wrestling, on the contrary, it is each moment which is intelligible, not the passage of time… The logical conclusion of the contest does not interest the wrestling-fan, while on the contrary a boxing-match always implies a science of the future. In other words, wrestling is a sum of spectacles, of which no single one is a function: each moment imposes the total knowledge of a passion which rises erect and alone, without ever extending to the crowning moment of a result."

thinkprogress.org/politics/2015/09/14/3701084/donald-trump/

I've read that three times and I'm none the wiser, no wonder the elite are totally stumped.

If they really want the answer, there is no need to cionsult a teenage whizzkid, I could tell them for free

It's simple really.

Let's "clean house"
Trump 2016!

Nobody is stumped. FYI.

Trump is just another populist bigmouth, and a bigot to boot. There is no way in this world or next that he will be elected President of the US.

Thankfully, "the people" don't choose the racist nut jobs that you love, like Trump and UKIP.

'There is no way in this world or next that he will be elected President of the US. '

You may be right. That is certainly what all the best political minds and pundits are saying. For them it is inconceivable that Trump could win. They say he will be stopped. They say the Republicans wil find a way to exclude him from the Republican ticket.

Millions of ordinary people hope that they are wrong, millions of ordinary people want to "clean house", to see Trump ascend the steps of the White House.

There is a year to go. The elite are biting their nails and the public are glued to Fox News. Even the Pope is probably tuning in.

To understand why Trump's construction of his persona as a buffoon is successful (at the moment), you need to examine what is left out and what is implied. The outrageous nature of his comments suggest that there is something amazing underneath, a perceptive brain or a heart of gold - surely nobody can be that bad, can they? Surely he's not serious...is he? Right now, the strategy is hooking some people in, but turning some off. Consistency may succeed in turning around the doubters, or he may fall if he makes a gaffe at a critical moment.

'or he may fall if he makes a gaffe at a critical moment'

Yes, that is why millions of us are keeping our fingers crossed that he won't blow it all. There are conspiracy theories that he will blow it deliberately and that he was a trick all along. Let's hope not.

'Meanwhile, the Turkish military has released a recording to support its claim that it gave 10 warnings to the Russian plane before shooting at it in Turkish airspace.

"Change your heading south immediately," a recorded voice is heard saying in English. Turkey also said it had tried to rescue the SU-24 bomber's two pilots, and did not know the jet was Russian until it was shot down.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34933608

Don't they establish some form of identification or communication with the pilot? What if it had been an American plane that had flown there by mistake?

Forces which are co-operating with each other file flight plans, and do not turn off their transponders and radios.

Thanks, PigletJohn, what happens when our airspace is breached? I thought our pilots fly up close to warn the other pilot.

Yes, that is why millions of us are keeping our fingers crossed that he won't blow it all. There are conspiracy theories that he will blow it deliberately and that he was a trick all along. Let's hope not. Claig, I don't want to be the one to tell you but he's been (or he himself has) set up for failure. At some point, he'll have to deliver on that incisive brain or wonderful personality but, to offset the extensiveness of the gaffes, he'll have to produce a Mother Theresa or an Einstein out of the bag. Something tells me he ain't going to do that.

The NATO countries generally scramble the planes to intercept the Russians approaching our airspace, and escort them until they fly away.

However we are not in a war zone, and the Russian bombers have not been attacking our allies on our border.

here's an interesting thing from 7th October

Didn't do any good, did it?

Trump's problem is that he is a very rich and powerful person, who is used to getting his own way and not being contradicted. If he behaves like a complete arse (which he does) and is criticised, he is convinced he was right and does not respect anyone who disagrees with him.

He staunchly repeats complete lies, for example about Obama and about American Muslims.

And today another arse.

'I don't want to be the one to tell you but he's been (or he himself has) set up for failure. '

It's OK, I'm used to it. The elite always win in the end, they always trick us in the end. But hope springs eternal, the people always hope that a better day will come.

Yes, Piglet, it is starting to look clear that the Turks see the bombing of their Turkmen allies in Northern Syria as a red line and warned Russia about that and used this incursion, if it occurred, as enforcement of the red line. The Russians obviously didn't think the Turks would do it.

Thank you Piglet.

Exactly my point and one that has been avoided by much reporting (outside Turkey, I mean) and thus speculation on this thread within the theory of premeditation by Turkey. This is an ongoing issue (not defending the action taken).

yep, when Russia send Nuclear bombers towards the UK and towards the Baltic states; or a Nuclear submarine into Swedish waters, it is a test, and it is certainly premeditated.

'Lavrov has backed Hollande’s proposal to close off the Syria-Turkey border, considered the main crossing point for foreign fighters seeking to join Isis. “I think this is a good proposal and tomorrow President Hollande will talk to us in greater detail about it. We would be ready to seriously consider the necessary measures for this,” he said on Wednesday.'

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/26/hollandes-anti-isis-talks-with-putin-complicated-by-downing-of-russian-jet

Unfortunately, I don't think that Hollande's proposal will fly because that border is being used to resupply Isis, Al Nusra and the other Jihadis and Russia and the Syrian Army are trying to plug the holes in the area near the Turkmen mountain in Northern Syria.

I think this is really what it is about and why the shootdown happened now. France and Russia were about to form an alliance to finally obliterate Isis, the funded terrorist gang who have been resupplied through neighbouring countries' borders by "accomplices of the terrorists".

"Turkey's downing of a Russian warplane near the Turkish-Syrian border on Tuesday badly damaged France's drive to build an alliance with the United States and Russia to defeat the Islamic State in retaliation for the Paris terrorist attacks."

www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/11/24/reports-turkey-shoots-russian-jet/76299190/

Hollande is in Moscow today trying to get the anti-Isis alliance back on track.

The objecive does look like trying to stop French Russian cooperation and better relations between the two countries which might lead to an easing of sanctions against Russia.

"The Islamic State's Worst Nightmare: Russia and France Joining Forces
...
“Whatever you think of the Russians, the fact is that they are the only ones able and willing to commit significant assets to the fight,” former French diplomat Simond de Galbert, who is currently a visiting fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told Politico today. “I think it’s difficult to blame the French for exploring [coordination with Russia], especially since President Obama has implied this week that the Paris attacks aren’t an event that justify altering the U.S. strategy in Syria.”
...
“I think he’s going to ask, first off, for the United States to work more with Russia,” Rep. Rick Larsen (D-Wash.), a member of the House Armed Services Committee, told CQ Roll Call.

But Obama has already stated that he’d only be willing to work with the Russians if they step away from backing Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad. Obama is also likely reiterate Washington’s demands that the European Union maintain its sanctions regime against Russia over the Ukraine crisis. Moreover, Obama is likely to demand that the French avoid hitting certain critical Daesh targets to avoid collateral damage. Indeed, three out of four American sorties flying over Iraq and Syria don’t drop ordinance because of directives from the White House."

nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-islamic-states-worst-nightmare-russia-france-joining-14422

However Russia's position in Syria is not an anti-ISIS operation, but a prop-up-Assad operation, which is the reverse of what the West wanted.