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Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

584 replies

Pantone363 · 24/11/2015 09:24

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

OP posts:
suzannecaravaggio · 25/11/2015 23:04

I know you get a lot of criticism on here here claig but personally I enjoy reading your posts
Very true mrsgrady, Claig is also always a jolly good sport and never seems to get rattledWink

Whether or not you are right or wrong Claig old chap I have no ideaGrin

claig · 25/11/2015 23:08

Thanks, suzanne.

I don't get rattled because I have thought it through and come to the conclusion that makes sense to me, but I am open-minded and do change my opinion if new information contradicts what I thought was true.

claig · 25/11/2015 23:14

I know that lots of what Alex Jones says is wrong or I think I know that, but I have built up what I think over years and years of observing what goes on and years of listening to all types of theories, facts and conspiracy theories.

I don't listen to Alex Jones any more because I have heard it all before. But I do tune in to Jones when there is a major event because i know that he has guests on that will throw a new perspective on events and will add to what is possibly true.

I think it is always worth hearing different theories in case some of it is true and adds to understanding so that we don't all keep being fooled and sold a pup like Blair did to all of us over Iraq etc.

howtorebuild · 25/11/2015 23:55

They won't damage the oil.

PigletJohn · 26/11/2015 00:09

the world is currently awash with cheap oil, the price has halved over the last year and there is a glut. RoW is not going to suffer a shortage if Syria's exports are damaged.

claig · 26/11/2015 00:19

Some analysts are saying that lots of money is being made off this stolen Syrian oil sold by Isis. They say it is being bought very cheaply form Isis and is then being sold at market prices so whoever is buying it is making lots of money.

Lweji · 26/11/2015 00:20

It's interesting how Trump thinks
"You take away their (ISIS's) wealth, that you go and knock the hell out of the oil, take back the oil,"

The US would (they are) bomb the wells, then get the money from the oil to themselves and send Exxon to rebuild the infrastructures. Sounds like a great plan to benefit the US economically (and people - I wonder who - with Exxon shares) and alienate the entire region yet again.

You do have to praise the US Armed Forces these days for how nice they are:
"We flew over with F-15s and we dropped leaflets we had developed, written in Arabic, that essentially said, 'Hey, run away, we're about to strike your trucks,' " www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/19/456600398/hitting-isis-where-it-hurts-by-striking-oil-trucks

claig · 26/11/2015 00:24

Trump is a loose cannon, I don't believe he will do half of the things he says. No one knows what he will do which is why there is panic at the prospect of him taking over. All we know is he won't do as he is told.

Lweji · 26/11/2015 00:26

don't believe he will do half of the things he says

Will?

That's a scary thought!!! (that he will be elected - knock on wood, and where is that troll witch?)

meditrina · 26/11/2015 00:27

How do they get the actual oil out?

(I get the idea of multiple deals to 'launder' it, but don't see how the actual commodity really moves. It's rather bigger than the Taliban's opiates, and can only be transported in large, specialist tankers and vessels).

Presumably some group outside IS controlled territory, but adjacent to it, is complicit. If so, who?

Lweji · 26/11/2015 00:27

My problem with him is not knowing what he will do, is in case in would do what he says he will.
And his racism, and sexism, and disablism...

Lweji · 26/11/2015 00:28

Actually, it's not not knowing (if that makes sense)

claig · 26/11/2015 00:29

It is the same with lots of these Roman antiquities, Syria's heritage, that the mercenary Jihadis are destroying. They are an organised gang of criminals selling antiquities on ebay to other criminals across the world who are buying these priceless antiquities stolen from Syria. They have been armed, funded and sent into Syria to rob its people and destroy its secular government. I am sure Putin knows who is behind them, but I am not sure he will tell the world and ruffle powerful feathers.

Lweji · 26/11/2015 00:31

Because Putin is not at all behind it? :)

claig · 26/11/2015 00:35

'Actually, it's not not knowing'

Yes that makes sense. Trump is much cleverer than he looks, he came top in his class at Wharton Business School. He is running rings around the Establishment and using this tactic of saying shocking, politically incorrect things as a trick to keep them off guard as they can't make out what he will do. The people don't care because they want someone to shake things up. He knows that and is milking it. If he wins, he will do many different things to what he says now, but the criminals will be arrested and he will rebuild America and end the wars for profit. That is why the elites are petrified of him. It looks like he is for real and some powerful people must be backing him or he wouldn't have gotten this far.

fourmummy · 26/11/2015 07:43

Hey Lweji :)

atimes.com/2015/10/cheap-oil-puts-the-house-of-saud-at-risk/

meditrina · 26/11/2015 07:46

"and end the wars for profit"

Are you sure? Perhaps he'll be more open about this motivation (when it applies) but still do essentially the same things.

Lweji · 26/11/2015 07:53

Not only Saudi. Quite a few other countries depend on high oil prices. And are effectively dictatorships.

claig, you sound (in regards to Trump) like those women who don't listen to what their new boyfriends say. They imagine them to be something else they hope they are, rather than what they say they are and how they act. Not dissimilar to how you portray Putin. They also are the establishment, to start with. They also have hidden interests.

FreeWorker1 · 26/11/2015 08:00

*meditrina& - the crude oil that ISIS steals is partially refined in very rudimentary distillation facilities run by ISIS and then the resulting product is loaded onto road tankers like you see taking petrol and diesel into filling stations in the UK.

ISIS don't drive the oil tankers. They are driven by private individuals who are just doing a job paid for by the buyer of the oil but are 'protected' by ISIS.

As Leweji - said the Americans are dropping leaflets telling the drivers to run away because their trucks are going to be bombed.

Once the product has been moved by road tanker it will end up in a storage facility somewhere in the region and after that it is mixed with other legitimately produced local fuel and loaded onto ships or just distributed to the filling stations and other end users of oil products locally who have no way of knowing where the product came from.

Obviously the middle men in that chain knows where it is coming from but the end user doesn't. That is why there is now bombing of the rudimentary distillation and road tanker infrastructure. Stopping the flow is easier than tracking down where it is going and then confiscating it.

batshitlady · 26/11/2015 08:17

Someone's buying ISIS' oil, that much is certain. There's growing distrust of Turkey, there seems to be likely they're are funnelling people to Syria to fight for them.

claig Haven't had time to read your link re: the presumed Anti-Isis alliance. I don't really think there is one though. sadly...

claig · 26/11/2015 08:52

'"and end the wars for profit"

Are you sure? Perhaps he'll be more open about this motivation (when it applies) but still do essentially the same things.'

I think so and so do lots of American people backing Trump. Trump knows that lots of companies and puppet politicians are profiting from being told what to do. There are cities like Detroit turned into rust belts, cities that gave people jobs, a future, hope and that gave th ewhole world music and culture and are dying a slow death while some fat cats profit by spending billions of US taxpayer money on wars across the planet. It can't go on and Trump will stop it. He says he will get on with Putin, he says he thinks it's great that Putin is in Syria beating the Jihadis, he says we don't know who we're backing in Syria, he is going to end the bad policy, the spending of trillions of US dollars on these policies. He says we can't do everything, we can't solve all the world's problems, we've got problems of our own. He will let Putin solve and pay for some of them, but he will change the relationships across the world.

"claig, you sound (in regards to Trump) like those women who don't listen to what their new boyfriends say. They imagine them to be something else they hope they are"

Yes, there is an element of that. Millions of Americans think the same. It is because everyone wants hope, everyone wants change, lots of people are fed up of lying puppets in the pockets of corporations who are too scared to tell teh truth and who lie on TV and line their pockets for doing so. Everyone knows Trump is not like Blair, Trump is not on the make, no one calls Trump "Yo Blair", Trump doesn't need a few million for making speeches etc, Trump has already made it, he is not climbing up there. That is why Trump will concentrate on doing what is right for America and right for the people not on what is right for himself. All of the Establishment are against Trump, they are all petrified of him because they know that Trump will "clean house" and some of teh crooks and profiteers will be going to jail.

This is the feeling of millions of ordinary right wing voters. They are less trusthworthy of the puppets than the Democrats, they want change more than the Democrats, they have had enough.

"The angriest voters, Pew found, are politically engaged conservatives, the Republicans most likely to vote in primary elections. Most of them say an ordinary citizen could do a better job in the White House than a professional politician. Among that group, Citizen Trump scores high.

"We're sick of career politicians," Marenda Babcock, 60, a Trump supporter in Indiana, said at a focus group sponsored by the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg Center last month. "We did what we were supposed to do. We wrote the letters, we made the phone calls, and they did not listen. And we're out to clean house."

www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1125-mcmanus-trump-polls-paris-20151125-column.html

Trump is going to "clean house", the voters love it and the eites fear.

I just watched Fox and an interview with Trump and they played Trump's latest advert. It goes "Hillary hhas been laughing at our expense for years" with clips of Hillary laughing. We know they have all been laughing at us for years, but Trump will change that. Then the advert showed the same old Republican puppets saying the same old things, the old ones and the new climbers, all saying the same thing. Trump will end that. Trump will "clean hoise" and that is what the American people will want and that will change the entire world. There will be business, trade, growth, getting on with world leaders instead of endless expenseive wars and there will be crooks and swindlers in jail.

suzannecaravaggio · 26/11/2015 09:23

Trump is not on the make
I hope you're right but I'm inclined to believed that power almost always corrupts

Truth is I've paid very little attention to Trump, formed an impression of him as a sort of comedy character and not taken the trouble to investigate further

claig · 26/11/2015 09:30

'formed an impression of him as a sort of comedy character'

Yes he is playing that role, he is saying what they don't allow anyone to say in order to break their politically correct Overton window and show the people that if he dares say it, he will dare do it and really "clean house". It can be worrying because no one knows what he will really do, but Trump voters are beyond that, they want change and Trump is the only one with the courage to "clean house".

' I'm inclined to believed that power almost always corrupts'

Not always. There are good people, including rich people. There are real philanthropists, not just poseurs on the make pocketing millions and huge salaries out of charidees. There are rich people with morals and a sense of duty and a respect for ordinary people who aren't "laughing at our expense".

FreeWorker1 · 26/11/2015 10:01

A prominent financial blog site called Zerohedge that aggregates and comments on financial and political news and views has just published an article here suggesting the who and the how of ISIS oil transactions are occurring.