Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

Yes, FreeWorker1, but at this time the war efforts and the agreement, afaik, was to concentrate on ISIS. NATO and others have been complaining for a while about Russia bombing everyone else instead.

'Can't link now. It was something I read when the plane first went down (hence the "apparently").'

It would be very strange since the Russians think the Turkish shootdown was a deliberately pre-planned provocation whose purpose is possibly for Russia to react in a way that would escalate into a Nato-Russia conflict. If that is the case, then an actual bombing of Turkey by Russia would have provided a casus belli for NATO to go to war with Russia anyway without the need for what the Russians call this "pre-planned provocation".

The Russians can and will say what they want. I have no reason to believe either side more than the other. And certainly not a former head of a secret service.

'I do hope he calls the bluff, then, and I hope Trump is one of the backers'

Trump says he thinks he would get o well with Putin. Trump will change the entire world if he gets in and lots of backers will be arrested if he gets in.

claig - you seem to have just agreed with something I wrote! Are you coming down with something?

And (for once) I want to know about the oil.

I don't see it as the huge elephant in the room in every conflict. But I read so often that ISIS is funded by oil profits. Who's buying it?

'I have no reason to believe either side more than the other.'

Let's wait and see if the Alex Jones articles about Erdogan's son are true and who is actually buying oil from Isis. If Trump gets in he will find out and reveal it. "Accomplices of terrorists" are untrustworthy, let's wait and see who they are. The French people will want to know.

'you seem to have just agreed with something I wrote! '

I often agree with your posts but don't always say so.

'Who's buying it?'

That is what Trump is asking and what Corbyn is asking. Everyone else seems to be quiet about it. Now that Russia's plane has been shot down, Putin may end the diplomatic language and tell the world who it really is.

Good heavens! I'm in the same corner as Corbyn and Trump?

'Good heavens! I'm in the same corner as Corbyn and Trump?'

Absolutely, you're with the people, not the elites.

I'd expect that nobody is buying it and everyone is buying it.

meditrina - "But I read so often that ISIS is funded by oil profits. Who's buying it?"

You are ultimately buying it when you fill up your car. The oil is partially refined into a low quality diesel in Syria by ISIS and then sold. Once comingled with other diesel or further refined and put on a tanker no one knows where it came from.

I used to trade oil. Its a mucky business and always has been.

Thanks FreeWorker1 and that just begs more questions.

Who are they selling it to, such that it ends up in the supply chain to the major companies?

And how are they getting it from the oil fields in their territory to the rest if the world?

How do payments reach them? Hawala?

Bit coins.

Perhaps the accomplices of terrorists will turn out to be "little green men" with no insignia on their uniforms or vehicles

Good questions, meditrina, and why is no one else (apart from brave, lonely, laughed at Corbyn) asking them and trying to find out the answer? It's probably common knowledge but is probably too embarrassing to reveal. But I think Trump may reveal it.

meditrina - it is sold through a series of local middlemen at a deeply discounted price and eventually mixed in with other legitimate diesel and then eventually it ends up in an oil refinery or tank farm (a place where oil products like gasoline and diesel are stored and blended) and then eventually it is sold on via national oil companies or to international oil traders who have regular legitimate import export business and who may themselves have absolutely no idea where the oil is coming from.

I used to do the job and although I knew the loading terminal on the Bill of Lading I had absolutely no idea where the gasoline and diesel on the ships had originated from. Frequently entire ship loads would change hands 200 times in a matter of days. Sometimes I was buying and selling shiploads of diesel weeks or months before the crude oil it would eventually been made from had even been pumped out of the ground.

We know ISIS is selling diesel but we just can't identify which oil originated with ISIS.

The Russians have called it a "pre-planned provocation" and they therefore know what the objective was i.e. to draw them in to react against the provocation and that is why Putin will do the opposite.

If it was pre planned I would say it was russia who planned it.

Russia is on the side of the most evil party in this whole mess, after all.

there is zilch morality or integrity.

free

Thanks for your insight here. Not surprising at all.

I guess we all need to start demanding from oil companies, transparency as to where its coming from.

After all there was out cry over horse meat in pies...

'Russia is on the side of the most evil party in this whole mess'

Russia is not on the side of Isis. Many reports say that Turkey has been supplying them and buying oil from them.

'If it was pre planned I would say it was russia who planned it.'

They wouldn't sacrifice their own pilots unless they wanted to use that as an excuse for war against Turkey and as we have seen they are not going to go to war with Turkey over this although Putin will get back at Erdogan eventually. The pre-planned provocation is much more likely to have been a trap to start a wider war against Russia instead of the coalition between France and Russia against the Isis Jihadis who have been funded and aided by someone.

Drastic - the solution is to bomb the refineries and road tankers that ISIS use - which has now started happening. If we stop the flow of oil from its source then the money will stop.

I am not sure why it has taken the US/France/UK/Russia to work this out.

I know you get a lot of criticism on here here claig but personally I enjoy reading your posts. I think you offer a well thought out alternative view and the way things are panning out with recent events, in my view the crazy conspiracy theorists are looking a lot less crazy.

The Financial Times headline spells out what has happened

"Turkey-Russia tensions muddy anti-Isis alliance in Syria"

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8e13f7b0-92cd-11e5-bd82-c1fb87bef7af.html#axzz3sXvhS1ha

The backers of Isis have thrown a spanner in the works of the alliance between France and Russia to finish off Isis. The "accomplices of the terrorists" have bought time for Isis to survive a little longer. But Hollande meets Putin tomorrow and Hollande won't be fooled by tricks because the French people won't put up with it.

Thanks, MrsGradyOldLady.

I don't know if I am right, it is only my limited understanding based on what I think is going on. The world is not as it seems, there are all sorts of schemes and plots by powerful people that serve their interests and are against the interests of ordinary people across the planet.

Really interesting thread. I'm not as sharp as I once was n the information in the media is so varied, biased n confusing it makes my brain hurt so it's been great to read all the comments n get a bit of a handle on this. Thank u everyone.

Yes that's the conclusion I seem to be coming to too