Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

Thanks, ASmallHenInItsLateForties.

I don't know if I am right, I can only guess. I hope I am wrong and no one does want to trick Russia into a world war. I think Putin will resist playing that game but I don't know for how long he can do so and how many provocations he can resist.

It does look like the Turkish shootdown was delibearte and must have had approval outside of Turkey due to the implications and that it is very serious and worrying that someone is prepared to risk that.

Corbyn has only got the effrontery and sheer audacity to take part in a 'Stop the War' Christmas fundraiser. Will he never learn? Will he never STFU?

Watching US television.

Rumour is that the real reason the Russian jet was shot down is that it was bombing Turkmen rebel positions who are ethnic Turkish and hence allies on the ground in Syria. Not because it briefly encroached in Turkish airspace.

Will he never learn? Will he never STFU?

He's a natural backbencher & thorn in the side for his party leadership.

He's not leadership material - Cameron must have thought Christmas had come early when he won....

'He's a natural backbencher & thorn in the side for his party leadership.'

He certainly asks a lot of embarrassing questions.

'He's not leadership material '

You are probably right alas, he does seem to have morals and principles.

Tut get the pilots back from the Turkmen not Turkmenistan (is that still a place?)

I think the effect of this is to cement Turkey in NATO and with the West. Turkey had wanted to join the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, but I think that will be history now. Turkey has nowhere else to hgo now and must remain with the West which is good news for the West as the West needs Turkey in any future possible war.

Turkey was also intending to take Russian oil after US pressure had got the EU to cancel the route for Russian oil through the Balkans. That is good news for the US and bad news for Russia and also for Turkey as Turkey would have made money out of the deal and would have received cheap oil.

In the game of chess of geopolitics, Turkey is probably a loser and Russia is definitely a loser out of this.

Although this may increase pressure to accept Turkey in the EU which is what the US and UK want and which would be good news for Turkey.

"EU-Turkey summit, a first in 46 years, to be held Sunday despite criticism"

"The panicked European Union has called for an EU-Turkey summit on Sunday in a bid to sort out the deepening refugee crisis, which has shaken the EU to its roots.

The summit is a first in the 46-year tumultuous relationship, which started in 1959 and has so far been fruitless for Turkey as Brussels has strongly resisted the prospects of Turkish membership despite the commencement of accession talks in 2005.

The summit will be held between the 28 member countries and Turkey on Sunday in Brussels to discuss how to re-energize the moribund accession process and to stem the flow of refugees, announced Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council."

www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_eu-turkey-summit-a-first-in-46-years-to-be-held-sunday-despite-criticism_405161.html

claig - "I think the effect of this is to cement Turkey in NATO and with the West... Turkey has nowhere else to hgo now and must remain with the West"

And I think it is really depressing that:

(1) you really really don't understand what is going on, with your conspiracies, theories about the world elite etc.
(2) you quote the sensationalist nonsense of Today's Zaman "The panicked European Union has called for an EU-Turkey summit on Sunday in a bid to sort out the deepening refugee crisis, which has shaken the EU to its roots" FFS
(3) others on here know even less than you, such that some think your posts actually provide insight.

"Although this may increase pressure to accept Turkey"

Turks don't want to enter the EU anymore. EU doesn't want Turkey. It will never happen. There is no such pressure. What on earth are you talking about?

"It does look like the Turkish shootdown was deliberate "

Of course it was deliberate. They warned the plane 10 times in 5 minutes. Then they shot it. Does any of that sound like an accident?

'Turks don't want to enter the EU anymore. EU doesn't want Turkey.'

I don't think it matters what ordinary Turks think, only what the Turkish elites think. The people of Britain didn't want to go to war with Iraq, but Blair and the gang did.

I think the EU will be told to take Turkey by the US and I think that Turkey has many bargaining chips which will break Germany and france's resistance over time.

'Of course it was deliberate.'

Then we agree. But being deliberate means that decision makers outside of Turkey must have been in agreement with that policy since it potentially affects all of NATO and a much wider war.

Merkel has been put under intense pressure due to the refugee crisis with refugees mainly emanating from the Turkish camps in Turkey. Now she is flexible and looking for a deal to help her out of a hole and Turkey holds the cards

"Merkel pushes for Turkey EU membership talks

German chancellor Angela Merkel gave her support on Sunday (18 October) to a new start in EU-Turkey membership talks."

euobserver.com/enlargement/130735

Tomorrow's Daily Mail headline

"Why Turkey's reckless downing of this Russian jet could take world to the brink"

I disagree that it was "reckless", I think it was deliberate and agreed above Turkey's head because of the enormous implications and it went ahead anyway.

All i can think is maybe they are testing Russia's resolve for fighting it out in Syria. The West obviously don't want Russia there. Putin sold the Syria campagin to his countryman on the basis of protecting Russian civilians. So far in just under a month they have lost an airliner, and now a warplane and a helicopter. Its a dangerous war game. I wouldn't be surprised to see Russia up their military pressence in Ukraine soon as retaliation against NATO. Everyone seems to forget the Ukraine crisis is still ongoing with Ukraine military being killed everyday.

I agree penguinsarecool. They are hoping that Russia will be put off by the downing of the passenger jet and the downing of the military plane.

I think Putin will probably step up attacks on the Turkmen rebels and that wiill anger Turkey and Turkey may try to do something else against Russia. It is a dangerous situation that might escalate and I think some factions want it to escalate.

I don't think Putin will step it up in Ukraine because that would mean fighting a war on two fronts which is what some factions want to trap him into. It is more likely that the Ukrainians might now step it up in order to give Putin more of a headache.

I find it interesting that you are portraying Putin almost as a victim, when he's the former head of the KGB and hardly naive or particularly well meaning - also considering the internal situation in Russia.
I'd hardly think he is someone who is being trapped into anything.

Putin is not a mug. He knows the plan is to trap him and so far he has not fallen for it. He has huge approval ratings in Russia despite what some of the corporate media say. He is not being trapped, but the aim is to trap him. He entered Syria which my prove to one day be a trap just like Afghanistan was, only time will tell. But in the month since he has entered, he has seen what traps he is facing.

I don't think he will react rashly just as he didn't over the downed passenger jet when he took his time to work out who did it etc. But, we can't know what he will do in response which is why it is a dangerous situation for the whole world.

Putin thinks he is a victim, he says he was "stabbed in the back by accomplices of terrorists". I think he has been set up to fall into a trap.

Interesting that the default assumption is that Turkey is telling the truth, especially after the US reported they believe the jet was in Syrian air space and Russia says it has proof that it didn't enter Turkish space.

It will be interesting to see if Russia takes action against Turkey for this. And Turkey wouldn't be able to use article 5, as they started this by attacking a Russian jet

"I don't think it matters what ordinary Turks think, only what the Turkish elites think. "

You have no idea who a Turkish elite is or what one might be thinking. None whatsoever.

It would really be good if there could be just one discussion on world events without you bombarding it with conspiracy theory crap and nonsense from bizarro websites. But no, never will happen unless the elite want it

Interesting that this morning the British and US governments are pledging support to Turkey if Russia decides to attack. I don't know why I thought we were more aligned towards Putin when actually Putin hates the West generally. Turkey just doesn't seem a natural ally either.

Perhaps it is because Russia have once again been empire building recently?

NATO was never aligned with Putin and Putin was never aligned with any of the western countries.
Putin is Russian old guard.

They have a common enemy in ISIS, although, TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if Russia was actually the one financing ISIS, but that's just me speculating and a liking for stories of espionage.

I think this makes for an interesting reading to pps in this thread.

www.stopfake.org/en/tag/pro-russian-trolls/

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11656043/My-life-as-a-pro-Putin-propagandist-in-Russias-secret-troll-factory.html

People should be very careful of what they read on forums.