Turkey has shot down a Russian jet

[Pantone363]

Apparently it violated their air space and ignored repeated warnings.

'might just be aiming to disrupt the infidel whenever they can get lucky'

I doubt it.They attacked Paris just before the G20 meeting when all the world leaders would get together to take action against them.

'it's being done from the territory they held in Syria by people with experience/training'

Absolutely, that is why as our generals say, we should send troops and tanks against them, either Syrians or others, to wipe them out. Everyone agrees that bombing won't stop them.

Turkish forces had better be careful when they're escorting those weapons & supplies to the ISIS forces - if they step a toe over the border you can bet Putin'll chop it off........

It'll be interesting to see what the consequences are all round, over the next couple of weeks....

I don't believe that the Syrian civilians are joining Isis.

Nobody said they were. Just that attacking ISIS in a direct effort of classic warfare would lead to even more civilian lives being lost.

'Yes, no-one would ever suspect people who do that, so excellent cover.'

Most of them were already known to the security services and were on watchlists as extremists, so they had no cover. But they aren't or weren't real religious Muslims.

Our generals said they could wipe them out in 14 days.

They were also convinced they could go to Iraq and come back quickly. Well...

'Just that attacking ISIS in a direct effort of classic warfare would lead to even more civilian lives being lost.'

Yes, but what is the alternative apart from stopping their funding and arresting their backers? The alternative is that they remain able to attack the West and passenger jets etc. They need to be wiped out and as Corbyn says, stopping their backers and funders is part of that.

I didn't mean 'whenever they get lucky' as a synonym for 'at random'.

More that there may be no actual game plan of what they want, other than to harm unbelievers in as frightening ways as possible whenever they can do that. An 'evil death cult' (to use the PM's favoured term) might just want to bring the end of the world.

I agree about need for ground troops, btw. But has anyone got the stomach for this fight? The coalition and Tory cuts to the Forces cannot be good for UK readiness. I heard something on the news today about how precisely none of the current main threats had been foreseen at time of the last defence review.

Syria is a political mess. Best the UK stays out of it in my opinion. Too many factions involved already without us sticking our oar in.

'They were also convinced they could go to Iraq and come back quickly. Well...'

True. But I think Isis is an artificial construct of DJ Jihaids and mercenary terrorists who have been armed and supplied, not a tribal group that will endure.

The Syrian Army has not being doing too well against Al Nusra and Isis because they have been armed to the teeth with sophisticated weapons by their backers. But if all that ends and their funding and resupply through Turkey dries up, then they will collapse quite quickly.

'Too many factions involved already without us sticking our oar in.'

The problem for Cameron is that there is pressure on him to show solidarity. France and the US are bombing and they are probably asking when Cameron will join in. It is essentially symbolic without ground troops and a proper strategy. I think we should stay out unless there is a real plan to finish Isis off with ground troops. We will have to wait and see what Cameron's plan is on Thursday.

Just seen on the news that nato are suggesting that the Russian plane was over turkeys boarder for around 17 seconds. Not enough time to go through the usual protocol unless it was already prearranged.

Claig - The UK is doing its fair share already against ISIS in Iraq which everyone seems to forget.

All in all Turkey have overreacted on this one.

I'd assumed that that airspace would be very heavily monitored, and that movements of that plane (and all others) would be discoverable.

Does anyone know for sure what happened to the pilots?

Report on BBC said Turkmen have them, on other news sites the Turkmen claim to have shot and killed them as they fell.
However the Turkish have said they are off to get them back from Turkmenistan so it's unclear

I thought there was video footage of at least one dead pilot after they were shot at whilst decending in their parachutes?

I think Isis is an artificial construct of DJ Jihaids and mercenary terrorists who have been armed and supplied, not a tribal group that will endure We keep on hearing that they are rich in their own right now. Are they still an artificial construct?

'We keep on hearing that they are rich in their own right now.'

I think that is a cover story to explain how they got their arms. We know they robbed a bank which is when they got rich and we know they do sell oil cheaply to other buyers and are making millions off it per day. But I think they have been facilitatted and armed and supplied which is why I call them an artificial construct that will collapse once support for them is ut off, it it ever is and if it suits their backers.

Claig, who do you think the 'someone controlling Isis' could be?

Who buys the oil?

ISIS are financed by rich Arabs from Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Nations who are in turn supported by the West. Its fucked up.

'Claig, who do you think the 'someone controlling Isis' could be?'

Elite factions.

Alex Jones has been running a video clip of an interview with Mehdi Hassan and a general who was former head of the US Defence Intelligence Agency. He says he made recommendations against supporting the extremist Salafists but the decisions taken were above his head

'Who buys the oil?'

That is what Corbyn is asking which is why every puppet is telling him to shut up.

Sorry I think the actual phrase teh puppets used towards Corbyn was "when will you shut the fuck up?"

Thanks for the link Claig. Your posts are so interesting.