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Have Muslim leaders been condemning the attacks?

197 replies

JumpandScore · 16/11/2015 19:52

It just occurred to me reading another thread (sorry!)

I am very much in the don't tar them all with the same brush camp, but a number of people have said why aren't many Muslims speaking out? It's true I haven't seen any reports of prominent Muslims condemning them. Have I missed them? Are they not being reported? Or are they keeping quiet?

OP posts:
fourmummy · 23/11/2015 10:46

Sigh. Couldn't not respond. My final point on this before I leave the thread
Do I think that all men are rapists? NO, because they are not
Do I think that all Catholic priests are child molesters? NO, "
Do I think that all black men have rhythm? NO, "
Do I think that all Germans are Nazis? NO, "
Do I think that all Muslims are extremists? NO, "

Do I think that the conditions (beliefs, stereotypes, attitudes, learned texts, official documents, unofficial documents such as magazines and newsletters), which give rise to these events are the cause of child abuse incidents, genocide, racism, rape? YES. Do I think that both overt (endorsing attitudes which support these stereotypes) and tacit support for these things (tacit support includes something as 'benign' as not speaking out, turning a blind eye, not confronting issues, not demonstrating, writing or protesting about attitudes which are supportive of a view that perpetuates the inequality inherent in these actions, e.g., stereotyping black men in terms of their physicality and not in terms of their intellect; viewing homosexuality as wrong/an act against human nature/an act against God; stereotyping Jews as greedy and money-obsessed; stereotyping women who wear short skirts as 'available for sex' - take your pick) give rise to the Holocaust, Stephen Lawrence, Rwanda, child abuse, racism... and yes, our Rotherham, our Birmingham Trojan Horse schools issue, ISIS, etc.. ? YES, YES, YES.

It's an uncomfortable conversation to have because it's easier to think that extreme things happen because of a handful of psychopathic extremists and not because we, by tacitly accepting inaccurate stereotypes and not challenging them, may, just may, have also contributed to these events.

PigletJohn · 23/11/2015 11:05

"Who is left?"

Yep, inaccurate stereotyping (tick)

TheNewStatesman · 23/11/2015 11:53

"So fourmummy what is your view on the article I've posted below? It's Islamic scholars totally refuting Isis' twisted interpretation of Islam. They're pretty clear that was Isis is doing is completely unIslamic.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/muslim-scholars-islamic-state_n_5878038.html"

Well, let's have a look at some of the "Islamic scholars totally refuting Isis' twisted interpretation of Islam," shall we?

One of them is this guy:
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jakewallissimons/100272760/why-is-the-pope-meeting-a-hate-preacher-in-israel/
"Mr Hussein has a long track record of incitement. In 2006, not long after he was appointed, he stated that suicide bombing was “legitimate”, because “so long as the resistance is legitimate, everything related to it is legitimate”.
Five years later, he caused an outcry when he quoted a controversial hadith at a rally in east Jerusalem. “The hour (of resurrection) will not come until you fight the Jews,” he said. “The Jew will hide behind stones or trees. Then the stones or trees will call: Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him… That’s the Palestine we are talking about, with the beginning of the jihad and the continuation of the jihad, with the struggle and the procession of martyrs.”

TheNewStatesman · 23/11/2015 11:59

And that, my friends, is the problem.

"Most muslim leaders and clerics do not support ISIL." Sure. Perfectly true. But a bit of a straw man argument, to be honest. I don't think many people seriously believe that many or most muslims support ISIL, and ISIL are, you know, a bunch of mass murderers. "Not supporting ISIL" is a bit of a low bar to set.

The real problem is what you might call "soft extremism." And the problem is that support for soft extremism doesn't seem to be all that thin on the ground.

As long as soft extremism exists and is widespread, we will continue to see terrorism committed by a few, psychopathic, individuals.

warmastoast · 23/11/2015 12:27

Political extremist ideologies cannot be simply be cured by reformist humanistic religious preaching - brutal dictatorships, crushing of opposition and international support for such regimes (until they stop supplying them the goods they want), poverty, drought and deep inequalities, the accumulated effects of conflicts where poor policies, indiscriminate actions and zero accountability follows.. there are so many factors that need to be tackled so that people are not primed to listen to the promises of extremists. I often feel like delving into ideas of humanistic ideas of reform is very interesting and valuable, and is producing a lot of change BUT that is attracting the educated, practicing Muslims grounded in their faith and their arguments are not going to be affect those who go from zero to terrorist looking for an outlet for their frustrations. The background of the Paris killers seem to confirm the evidence that these are people who were not practicing their faith and had criminal pasts, or very young (13) when they were manipulated into joining IS.

Basically the core issues and conflicts that give rise to these militant responses need to be addressed or there will be no end to them. Longer term religious reform efforts can and do take place but is far more difficult in this polarised world where every issue is conflated with terrorism.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/11/2015 12:28

The real problem is what you might call "soft extremism." And the problem is that support for soft extremism doesn't seem to be all that thin on the ground

Completely agree, though I'll no doubt be told that regarding some as culpable really means I'm demonizing all

Maybe it's not really so surprising though - after all, this incessant victimhood has been used to avoid debate for so long, it's perhaps understandable some won't tolerate an alternative point of view. Perhaps when someone's clear in saying they don't wish to tar everyone with the same brush, cries of "oh yes you are!!" is all they have left?

warmastoast · 23/11/2015 12:45

Perhaps if she showed awareness or actual communication about the huge diverse community being referred to rather than a very crude and simplistic caricature gleaned from the media.

LimboNovember · 23/11/2015 14:23

If Muslims have been told that it's impossible to amend, well, they'll just have to find a way to modify it I am calling for increased pressure for Muslims to join others in the calls for modification, amendment or change (or, deletion) of Sharia law

Dr Tag, is a devoted Muslim Iman who leads and shows there is no need to segregating men and women nor in fact stop Gay Muslims from praying.

I am no expert but he mentions something about Hadith and Quran? One is more extreme than the other?

LimboNovember · 23/11/2015 14:27

More than 120 Muslim scholars from around the world joined an open letter to the “fighters and followers” of the Islamic State, denouncing them as un-Islamic by using the most Islamic of terms.

Thats wonderful, i read somewhere that also dropping leaflets to this effect would help with the over all efforts in some areas of the conflict.

fourmummy · 23/11/2015 20:14

Had to post this as relevant here, from an article (US-centric) by Ayaan Hirsi Ali (2015 - www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2015-06-16/problem-heaven). I've pasted in the relevant parts below:

We have a problem—not a problem from hell, but one that claims to come from heaven. That problem is sometimes called radical, or fundamentalist, Islam, and the self-styled Islamic State is just its latest iteration. But no one really understands it. In the summer of 2014, Major General Michael Nagata, the commander of U.S. special operations forces in the Middle East, admitted as much when talking about the Islamic State, or ISIS. “We do not understand the movement,” he said. “And until we do, we are not going to defeat it.” Although Nagata’s words are striking for their candor, there is nothing new about the state of affairs they describe. For years, U.S. policymakers have failed to grasp the nature of the threat posed by militant Islam and have almost entirely failed to mount an effective counteroffensive against it on the battlefield that matters most: the battlefield of ideas.
[...]
In the war of ideas, words matter. Last September, U.S. President Barack Obama insisted that the Islamic State “is not Islamic,” and later that month, he told the UN General Assembly that “Islam teaches peace.” In November, Obama condemned the beheading of the American aid worker Peter Kassig as “evil” but refused to use the term “radical Islam” to describe the ideology of his killers. The phrase is no longer heard in White House press briefings. The approved term is “violent extremism.”

The decision not to call violence committed in the name of Islam by its true name—jihad—is a strange one. It would be as if Western leaders during the Cold War had gone around calling communism an ideology of peace or condemning the Baader Meinhof Gang, a West German militant group, for not being true Marxists. It is time to drop the euphemisms and verbal contortions. A battle for the future of Islam is taking place between reformers and reactionaries, and its outcome matters. The United States needs to start helping the right side win.
[...]
Yet this line of reasoning fails to understand the crucial link between those who preach jihad and those who then carry it out. It also fails to understand that at a pivotal moment, the United States has opted out of a debate about Islam’s future.

THE FAILURE

American policymakers have made two main arguments for avoiding the subject of Islam, one strategic, the other domestic. The first holds that the United States must not jeopardize its interests in the Middle East and other majority-Muslim parts of the world by casting aspersions on Islam. The second contends that the country must not upset the delicate balance in Western democracies between Muslim minorities and non-Muslim majorities by offending Muslims or encouraging so-called Islamophobes. Yet it is becoming harder and harder to sustain these arguments, since U.S. interests in the Middle East are in increasing jeopardy and since the domestic threat of militant Islam is far greater than the threat of a much-exaggerated Islamophobia.

The United States cannot wish away the escalating violence by jihadist groups or the evidence that substantial proportions of many Muslim populations support at least some of their goals (such as the imposition of sharia and punishing apostates and those who insult Islam with death). The Middle East and North Africa grow more violent by the day. A substantial part of Syria and Iraq has fallen to the Islamic State. Yemen has collapsed into anarchy. Islamists have set up bases in Libya. The militant Islamist group Boko Haram is causing grave instability in northern Nigeria, as well as in neighboring Niger and Cameroon.

The nonstrategy, in short, has failed. Indeed, the official U.S. position collapses when the United States’ own Middle Eastern allies begin openly referring to Islamic extremism as a “cancer” (in the words of the United Arab Emirates’ ambassador to the United States) and calling for a “revolution” in mainstream Islamic religious thinking (as Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi has). As for the home front, an estimated 3,400 Westerners, many of them young men and women with promising futures, have voluntarily chosen to leave behind the West’s freedoms and prosperity in order to join the Islamic State. More British Muslims have volunteered for the Islamic State than for the British military. The United States is not in this dire state, but the direction of travel is troubling. Already, more than 50 young American Muslims have tried to join the Islamic State, and around half of them have succeeded. It is time to change course.

THE OPPORTUNITY

The first step is to recognize that the Muslim world is in the early stages of a religious reformation. To understand its nature, it is important to distinguish between the three different groups of Muslims in the world today. The first consists of Muslims who see the forcible imposition of sharia as their religious duty. The second group—the clear majority throughout the Muslim world—consists of Muslims who are loyal to the core creed and worship devoutly but are not inclined to practice or preach violence.

The third group consists of Muslim dissidents. A few, including myself, have been forced by experience to conclude that we cannot continue to be believers, yet we remain deeply engaged in the debate about Islam’s future. But the majority of dissidents are reformist believers, among them clerics who have come to realize that their religion must change if its followers are not to be condemned to an interminable cycle of political violence.

Yet there are two fundamental obstacles to a reform of Islam. The first is that those who advocate it, even in the mildest terms, are threatened with death as heretics or apostates. The second is that the majority of otherwise peaceful and law-abiding Muslims are unwilling to acknowledge, much less to repudiate, the theological warrants for intolerance and violence embedded in their own religious texts

PigletJohn · 23/11/2015 20:51

fourmummy Sun 22-Nov-15 17:17:38
"Statistics show that there are some "

still no sign of your evidence.

fourmummy · 23/11/2015 21:06

Hang on, PigletJohn. When I said that, I was referring to statistics showing Muslims actively agreeing with statements such as 'Right to leave or convert', 'Right to gender equality', 'Right to homosexuality', 'Right to freedom of speech'. I have seen some polls to this effect but they are hard to find -perhaps for a specific reason? I'll get back to you on that one, although I fear that I may be confirming my main point after all.

fourmummy · 23/11/2015 21:29

NOP Research survey (2007, so quite old): 3% of British Muslims took a consistently pro-free speech line on the questions (I'm quoting these results from a newspaper write-up of the survey). I'll try and find something more recent...

fourmummy · 23/11/2015 21:48

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality

  • 0% of British Muslims found homosexuality acceptable.
  • 3% found relations outside of marriage morally justifiable.
PigletJohn · 23/11/2015 22:21

You said "If you exclude Muslims who support ISIS, Charlie Hebdo events, homophobia, gender inequality, punishment for apostasy, ditto for blasphemy, Rotherham, Birmingham Trojan horse schools events, Lutfur Rahman, penalties for conversion to atheism, Judaism, or Christianity, then how many are left who support free speech, gender and sexual orientation equality, freedom to leave religion or conversion, etc.? Statistics show that there are some -but not many"

So you're lumping together child molesters and people who approve of mass murder, and people who (like Jehovah's Witnesses and the Catholic Church) disapprove of homosexuality and extra-marital sex.

A curiously broad brush, and lacking in moral equivalence.

fourmummy · 24/11/2015 07:55

PigletJohn- I lump these examples together on purpose, for EXACTLY the reason that you are questioning. If you turn your back or don't speak out against homophobia, then it's not THAT big a deal in the UK, granted. Here, it perhaps IN THE PRESENT equals silent disapproval but elsewhere, it equals murder. Unfortunately, history has shown that there's a hair's breadth between when a sentiment is acted out and when it isn't if the foundation is there. Casual, everyday, mundane sexism, racism, homophobia, ignorance, 'nothing to do with me' attitudes are the stuff of nightmares and have been attributed to every single genocide and slaughter..and to every single bad behaviour you can think of. Rotherham didn't happen only because the perpetrators are abusers. It happened because their actions were enabled, supported and presented as 'right' by a whole culture, in taught scriptures (among other things), which believes that a power imbalance between males and females, between old males and young females, etc. is right.

redstrawberry10 · 24/11/2015 12:59

More than 120 Muslim scholars from around the world joined an open letter to the “fighters and followers” of the Islamic State, denouncing them as un-Islamic by using the most Islamic of terms.

has anyone here actually read the "refutation"? I am not convinced it's very comforting.

Take, for example, the justification for not "harming or mistreating" (keep in mind ISIS was trying to commit genocide here) the Yazidis. The reason being you can't harm "people of scripture", often meaning Jews and Christians only but I guess they (the scholars) have a more expanded use of the people of scripture (great!). And since Yazidis somehow fall under this (it's unexplained how), it appears they shouldn't be harmed.

Well, that wouldn't work if the Yazidis were atheists or pagans. Which is why the best justification of not committing genocide against the Yazidis is that it's wrong to commit genocide against any people.

DrasticAction · 24/11/2015 14:12

fourmummy

That's a really interesting link, I also think we are seeing a reformation in Islam but I feel we are all being dragged into it.

Piglet John I think your aim is to taint every single post with the words islam or muslim in as racist.

red it reminds me when one of the parents of a fighter killed in Syria went on BBC to talk about it and basically discourage others. That was the theme of the chat.

Then He said something like " Go and help the cause, but not as a fighter, as cheap meat to be killed on the battle field, if you want to go and help as a doctor go, but don't waste your life like this"
The person next to him was red faced and spluttering and someone from Quilliam on the screen had to go back and say " to make it clear its an offense to go to Syria to fight at all, no matter what you go to do"!!!

warmastoast · 24/11/2015 15:56

I have read the refutation and analyses of it and I also feels it falls short in certain aspects especially in glossing over the history of slavery and it's abolition but on the other hand there's plenty of strong evidence presented that proves how beyond unorthodox ISIS are and how they discard the basic principles and texts of the faith in favour of their own obscure literature.

PigletJohn · 24/11/2015 16:13

Drastic action

I do not criticise everyone who uses the terms "Muslim" or "Islam."

However I certainly do challenge a person who lumps together child molesters and people who approve of mass murder, and people who (like Jehovah's Witnesses and the Catholic Church) disapprove of homosexuality and extra-marital sex, and states that she does it deliberately to create an exaggerated sense of fear and threat.

originalmavis · 24/11/2015 16:51

Hullo piglet. I thought you'd been excommunicated or summit. Welcome back to the next.

fourmummy · 25/11/2015 08:23

PigletJohn All legitimate concerns and I can understand why you may think that. However, my analysis applies to all extreme acts. At the moment, the spotlight is on Islam. If Jehovah's Witnesses start kicking off, we'd be discussing them. I read a lot about these issues and I've come to the conclusion that explaining extremity in terms of itself is pointless. If you want to explain extreme acts, especially if they keep on happening, then you need to look at the main body of the iceberg, the bit beneath the extreme act itself (the surface of the iceberg) and look at the structures which support it. Take sexual abuse. I'd ask myself these questions:

  • Who is the perpetrator? Well, apart from the mad lunatic, which is not a great explanation because they overwhelmingly seem 'normal', who or what else is allowing this to keep on happening time after time?
  • Society's belief system/ideology is allowing this to happen (and certain factions have an interest in maintaining it). In this case, the belief that males have a biological sex drive which needs fulfilling while women's coyness about sex (women being women can't make up their minds) requires someone to take control of the situation and 'change' their mind for them.
-Solution - change the belief system toward equality - gender neutrality (in law, in social practises, etc.).
  • Key point relating to your issue. The act itself, the surface part, doesn't really matter iyswim. Whether it's being flashed at, or raped and killed, is 'irrelevant' as such as both acts stem from the same belief system, in this case, the beliefs about the inequality about men and women.
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