Have Muslim leaders been condemning the attacks?

[JumpandScore]

It just occurred to me reading another thread (sorry!)

I am very much in the don't tar them all with the same brush camp, but a number of people have said why aren't many Muslims speaking out? It's true I haven't seen any reports of prominent Muslims condemning them. Have I missed them? Are they not being reported? Or are they keeping quiet?

I believe even Asaad has had some of his men lay flowers - whether its strategic I don't know.

All I know is the few Muslims I know are disgusted with IS.

Funky Me too. Why should they not be? Any act of terror terrorises, disturbs, saddens, angers. Humans are very similar in terms of basics such as intelligence (the vast majority of populations across the globe are of similar intelligence, as judged by IQ tests). Emotions seem to be universal (their expression is different). What separates us all is cultural beliefs and ideologies. Humanism is a uniting force. It's our only hope.

Puzzled you could do exactly what the men in that article you linked to did. Doesn't make it Shariah or in any way affiliated to shariah.

And no where in my post have I stated these aren't real Muslims the article didn't even call them Muslim men, one had apparently changed his name after being sentenced.

Why exactly are my words as a Muslim woman, who has spent years being taught Islam the Sunnah and the laws, deemed by you to be less worthy of note than what these two men who do not claim to be Muslim or scholars to be somehow representative of Islam and Muslims?

"Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over unthinking acceptance of dogma or superstition"

Also puzzled, that article does not show that Shariah laws are implemented over and above the laws of the land, that was two men who took it upon themselves to harass people and they have been dealt with by the authorities.

They were not sanctioned by the British Shariah council. They were not implementing Shariah law, you can't unless you are a member of the shariah court.

Just like a lay person going around harassing people to uphold British law, does not represent the British justice.

Fuzzy your words aren't "less worthy of note" than anyone else's, but that doesn't mean they have to be agreed with any more than you have to agree with mine. It appears you regard yourself to be well versed in Islamic law and practice, but surely you must be aware that tafsir means other muslims may well claim that actually theirs are the correct interpretations and yours mistaken?

And speaking of the Sharia Council, I found this quote from them illuminating: Though the Council is not yet legally recognised by the authorities in the UK, the fact that it is already established, and is gradually gaining ground among the Muslim community, and the satisfaction attained by those who seek its ruling, are all preparatory steps towards the final goal of gaining the confidence of the host community in the soundness of the Islamic legal system and the help and insight they could gain from it

Were these not the right kind of Muslims either, Fuzzy? Just what kind of world are we living in? Where is the decency?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3325273/CCTV-catches-terrifying-moment-father-six-brutally-set-hooded-thugs-pickaxe-handle-targeted-blasphemer-converted-Islam-Christianity.html

Puzzled one cannot go and interpret Islamic law as they see fit, only scholars issue Islamic edicts.

You can walk down the streets and say you are doing whatever you're doing to implement shariah but that doesn't mean that person is implementing Islamic law any more than joe blogs walking down the street saying what he is doing is in the name of the (British) law, he can do it but he isn't sanctioned by the British judiciary is he and in no way representative of the British Judicial system is he?

Anyone anywhere of any affiliation can say they are doing something in the name of whatever cause/religion doesn't mean they do unless they are recognised as such by that cause/religion whatever.

The men you linked to in the article are not claiming to be Muslim, they are not claiming to be scholars of Islam. They are not sanctioned by the Shariah council, or the local mosque or anybody to speak on behalf of Muslims they have not been elected by a Muslim ruler to dish out Islamic law on the streets of England.

Those men are no more representative of Islamic law than you are of all mothers everywhere.

Does that make sense?

The Shariah council does not contravene UK law or go against it, the law of the land prevails the Shariah council as mentioned over and over and over is for arbitration and personal disputes it is already used by Muslims for such.

four I have not called anyone the right or wrong kind of Muslim?

Is every single none Muslim murderer, paedophile, rapist representative of Christianity or Britain?

Are all the perpetrators currently physically assaulting and attempting to murder Muslim (mainly women) in retaliation for the Paris attacks representative of Christianity and Britain?

Tell me why this elderly man was attacked, why do you agree with this and accept it (presumably you do being as your both what not Muslim and therefore the pepetrator represents you to?)?

Presumably this woman is also representative of all women in England?

do the people who did [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34840896 this]] represent all of N Ireland?

I could go on.

this

Are all the perpetrators currently physically assaulting and attempting to murder Muslim (mainly women) in retaliation for the Paris attacks representative of Christianity and Britain? No, but these actions are representative of a specific ideology, which many, MANY do not agree with, criticise, debate and argue with. In the same way, why aren't Muslims criticising the teachings of Islam, apart from a tiny minority of Muslim critics and dissenters?

We are all equal, without doubt or qualification. This is not and never has been about humans, people, individuals, groups - but if an idea has shortcomings and limitations, then everyone needs to stand up, criticise it and amend it - unless it's not considered problematic (and therein lies the rub). We can't go on like this.

So if a person who has no Islamic learning carries out these attacks, I should criticise Islamic teaching?

Whilst sitting here criticising Islam and Muslims for 'not doing enough' I can tell you that a one Muslim woman has been attacked outside a McDonalds in Leytonstone not a single person helped her.

and there was stabbing this morning in east London, nobody helped.

I think and going by this thread and dozens on here, this is the representative attitude of non Muslims.

We've been instructed to stay indoors unless strictly necessary. The police are expecting this to happen.

I will not criticise Islamic scripture as I know it does not teach murder. I've read the Quran, studied the sunnah and the Islamic jurisprudence and I know it doesn't teach that.

Every single Muslim scholar/ruler/layperson I can think of/know of has stood up and despaired and deplored of the action of the France massacre, they are all over social media even the mainstream media has reluctantly picked it up.

But if you want me to apologise for it, you will wait a long time. I did not do it I am not responsible for it, it has nothing to do with me or mine.

I am more likely than you to be assaulted/attacked by people who represent you in thinking Islam is wrong and I am wrong for not 'criticising Islam' and who therefore see fit to take on thug like behaviour, and I am just as likely as you to get caught up in a terrorist attack.

I am out of here, this thread is not for people who want to learn and engage in discussion, rather to accuse baselessly and posture how superior they are for not having a religious faith.

Four mummy- you don't seem to be aware of the ongoing examination and critical analysis of many of the legal traditions among Muslim scholars and lay folk. It is an important process and valued- questions are constantly asked and at least in the UK context there is a lot of scope for discussion. By all means be critical of divorce laws but try to come into it from an informed, engaged position if you have any real desire to be part of progress rather than just reinforcing your own convictions of superiority, or worse, joining in generalised muslim-bashing which won't help at all. As far as I'm aware many Jewish communities follow divorce laws which from my perspective can cause a lot of hardship for women but I am by no means versed enough to start lecturing practising Jews in any constructive way.

only scholars issue Islamic edicts

I appreciate that, Fuzzy - but then isn't it true that even scholars disagree over interpretations? And what of the influence of extremist imams and other community leaders, who may or may not be acting strictly in accordance with doctrine, but sure as heck have a massive amount of influence?

FWIW I don't personally believe apologies should be expected from ordinary decent muslims, since they're not carrying out atrocities; I don't even consider them personally responsible, unless they've in any way supported the extremists. What I would like to see, though, is a lot more visible action to confront extremism within the community, and a lot less hiding behind all the tired excuses and claims of victimhood

I want to try something. For the next three days, I'm going to adopt a religious stance. I will pray to God, say thanks to God, think about creationism, etc.. If anyone wants to highlight any really meaningful passages from the Torah, the Bible or the Koran, then please do. Any religious people on here can do the reverse and try, for three days, to think like an atheist. This is what I do as an atheist. I don't pray, I don't say thanks to God, I eat whatever I like but have my own ethics around this issue (but you don't have to do that, for obvious reasons), I observe the beauty of nature and think about evolution. I wonder how we are evolving, how culture and genes interact, I smile a lot, I like people, I open doors and give up seats for men as well as women, etc.. , I enjoy the moment, I never think about the afterlife. We can all report back on Monday to this thread. What does it feel like?

I don't expect Muslims to apologise but I am appalled by the number of Muslims I personally know who blame Tony Blair and the Iraq war every time IS commits another atrocity. The logic is the fall of Sadam Hussein created the instability and political vacuum that allowed IS to rise. I do think the meddling of Western governments has created the conditions in which terrorism thrives but I can't see how that absolves IS of responsibility for their depraved medieval acts.

Fourmummy religion is much more than saying thanks to God and praying.
Religion is all about a sense of belonging and of community. It's about connecting with your spiritual side through rituals. It goes deeper than just a few prayers and thanks.
If you're not religious and don't have a need for religion then I'm not sure you'll understand it.
I've been having this discussion on another thread about believing in God. I think whether you have faith or not is something that's just within you. It's not something you can have control over. You can maybe be persuaded if you're an agnostic but I think it's hard for an atheist to 'get' religion.
I'm not sure what you can learn over 3 days of praying and saying thanks etc but good luck.

Not just Muslim women, obviously

www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jun/25/religion.uk1

Piglet John ^^ That's really worrying to read. I have to admit I do not know much about the practices of the Jewish faith nor other faiths.

Our family is Catholic, its large and the members are in varying degrees, closer to the church, the elderly ones really and hardly practicing at all - the younger ones.

My own mother felt great shame when she got divorced although absolutely no one - made her feel like that, it came from her own upbringing. No one shunned her or talked to her about it etc. And she didn't go near the church at all. It was never mentioned I do not even think she knew she was supposed too. I know in a generation, attitudes in the catholic church came a long way, and people even more horizontal about cousins divorcing etc.

But having read the Catholic divorce thing, it didnt strike me as sexist as the Sharia Court one, That one is heavily about the woman, her periods even, which personally make me cringe.

Piglet John having read both, do you not feel the Sharia Law one seems very sexist?

I suspect after the trials of the Jewish community people are also afraid to shine a light there.

Scientology is another one with highly dubious practice too.

That view isn't any kind of absolution- of course the iraq war wasn't the only factor but there is an institutional level of denial and lack of accountability for the foreign policies which have had a direct effect in the creation of conditions in which violent extremism can thrive. Pumping arms into the region, arming groups in Syria without being in control of how they are used and where they end up, the actions of international allies in supporting or supplying various armed groups.. I don't think it's bizarre or appalling that the average lay British Muslim who has no interaction with jihadi movements feels that these could be factors more relevant to point to when they are asked to account for ISIS existence (based on their personal faith and not on any special political expertise). It's not absolving ISIS of responsibility for its actions but since it's a violent apocalyptic cult with huge resources and territorial control they have a terrifying reach beyond most ordinary people, including lay Muslim communities, so they will also look to the leaders in power who have huge intelligence resources for some answers.

WoodenSpoon I am not expecting to find God although you never know and I am open to all possibilities :) but I want to know what it feels like to think about God, what it feels like to pray, what my thinking processes might be as I do these things. Are there any religious people out there who want to know what it feels like not to think about God, not to pray, to think about evolution, to think that there's nothing after death? I'd like to compare notes on Monday.

Well said, fuzzy.

www.theguardian.com/law/2010/jul/05/sharia-law-religious-courts

Fuzzy^ clearly your a Muslim and it feels a bit unfair your on this thread alone defending your religion. I am sorry if you feel under attack.

I am also sorry about the attacks on Muslims where you claim no one has helped them. But as ever there are good people out there and bad.

metro.co.uk/2015/11/17/man-jumps-to-defence-of-muslim-woman-targeted-by-racists-on-london-underground-5507675/

I have to say though, its not a new thing, to have people attacked and others doing nothing who ever they are.

I have plenty of Muslim neighbours, and I would do what I could if anyone attacked them, or tried to cause them harm, as I would for anyone anywhere I saw being harmed and indeed have done, and acted.

As that ^ stands though, its worrying! Any religion that purports the same stuff is worrying.

Most of the terrorists last week were brought up in Europe and are of Moroccan and Algerian origin. They were not affected by the chaos in the middle east. They are simply full of hate.

That view isn't any kind of absolution- of course the iraq war wasn't the only factor but there is an institutional level of denial and lack of accountability for the foreign policies which have had a direct effect in the creation of conditions in which violent extremism can thrive

Its tricky but without the radical preachers, the interpretation of the Koran, filling that void....

The fight may have stayed more tribal between sunni and shia tribes alone, and stayed in the region.

The whole world is being caught in cross hairs of a long tribal war and unfortunately one side has decided to drag religion into it, and a religion that's quite sticky and difficult to critisise and leave...