Have Muslim leaders been condemning the attacks?

[JumpandScore]

It just occurred to me reading another thread (sorry!)

I am very much in the don't tar them all with the same brush camp, but a number of people have said why aren't many Muslims speaking out? It's true I haven't seen any reports of prominent Muslims condemning them. Have I missed them? Are they not being reported? Or are they keeping quiet?

It wasn't a purely tribal conflict split on sectarian lines though- Assad and Saddam lead brutal regimes and Assad is using the kind of indiscriminate scorched earth that has had a far reaching brutalizing effect. Radical preachers preying on impressionable youth and disenfranchised with a binary us v them worldview isn't a new problem but the ISIS phenomenon is still a very new and even more extreme evolution (which discards much of the Quran in favor of their own religious sources) which even other jihadi groups have denounced. It's dark and very messy but there are many sides to this and many motivations, from political opportunism in Iraq, to desperation for a measure of security, to outright criminals motivated by power and greed rather than religion, to what appears to be non-religious millennial teenagers indulging in a fantasy alter ego online and being groomed over twitter.. It's disturbing and confusing, but we all need to be careful not to be drawn into the modern Crusades mindset but strive for a sense of unity and humanity.

"I will not criticise Islamic scripture as I know it does not teach murder. I've read the Quran, studied the sunnah and the Islamic jurisprudence and I know it doesn't teach that."

You must have read an awfully selective version, then.

"According to Haykel, the ranks of the Islamic State are deeply infused with religious vigor. Koranic quotations are ubiquitous. “Even the foot soldiers spout this stuff constantly,” Haykel said. “They mug for their cameras and repeat their basic doctrines in formulaic fashion, and they do it all the time.” He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance. “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.” Those texts are shared by all Sunni Muslims, not just the Islamic State. “And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.” www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

I mean, I'm not saying the Bible is any better, mind you (I am an atheist, no horse in that particular race).

The problem is that we are still waiting for Islam to go through its Enlightenment in the way that many other religions have already done (Enlightenment = organized, concerted movement to discredit the nasty bits in one's scripture).

I'm sure it will happen eventually, but right now we are not seeing much progress.

there are a surprisingly large number of recent quotes circulating attributed to Mr Haykel, although the article you link to is written by a person called Wood. It will be interesting to read a commentary from a trusted source.

But have you read this one?
"What The Atlantic Left Out About ISIS According To Their Own Expert"

thinkprogress.org/world/2015/02/20/3625446/atlantic-left-isis-conversation-bernard-haykel/

"One of the oft-mentioned criticisms of The Atlantic piece is that it echoed the inaccurate belief that since ISIS’s theology draws upon Islamic texts to justify its horrendous practices, it is an inevitable product of Islam. Haykel didn’t say whether or not he thought Wood’s article says as much, but when ThinkProgress asked him directly whether Islamic texts and theology necessitate the creation of groups like ISIS, he was unequivocal.

“No,” he said. “I think that ISIS is a product of very contingent, contextual, historical factors. There is nothing predetermined in Islam that would lead to ISIS.”

He was similarly unambiguous when responding to the related critique that Muslims who disavow ISIS are somehow deluded or not “real” Muslims."

I actually totally agree--all religions are capable of undergoing an enlightenment, and there is no sense in which the Islamic texts "inevitably" have to lead to ISIS.

I posted the above, rather, to confront the view that ISIS has nothing to do with the Islamic texts--which is what some people in this thread were naively stating. ISIS absolutely has a lot to do with Islamic texts.

Not being able to talk about this issue is making it less likely that Islam will undergo the enlightenment process which it needs to undergo.

Does this capture it (from a poster in the Guardian)?

"It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic Jihadist not to have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you have explicitly and repeatedly stated them. (Even worse, those on the regressive left, in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing, have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the Jihadists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility). It’s like a bad Monty Python sketch:

“We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it.”

“No you didn’t.”

“Wait, what? Yes we did…”

“No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons.”

“WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers.”

“No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so.”

“Huh!? Who are you to tell us we’re not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being.”

“Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that’s why you did this. We’re sorry.”

“What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians – disenfranchisement doesn’t even enter into it!”

“Listen, it’s our fault. We don’t blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out.”

“Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we’re not going to let you take it away from us.”

“No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame.”

“OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?”

www.faisalalmutar.com/2...

Lauren I'm not Muslim and I agree with them. Tony Blair should be on trial in the Hague right now.

So fourmummy what is your view on the article I've posted below? It's Islamic scholars totally refuting Isis' twisted interpretation of Islam. They're pretty clear that was Isis is doing is completely unIslamic.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/muslim-scholars-islamic-state_n_5878038.html

And the Wee Frees don't agree with Catholic doctrine.

I don't understand the argument.

I don't understand the argument. It works like this:

People who are calling for Muslim leaders to apologise (a nonsense and a mockery, and something I would never suggest) are not really calling for anyone to explain the actions of ISIS but are looking to ordinary Muslims to explain their 'moderate' status. The Koran, like the Bible, are enormously complex and reflect human life. All the good, the bad and the ugly of life are here. I can perfectly well understand how ordinary, lovely, peace-loving, tolerant, funny, happy Muslims (same as everyone else, basically) are bemused as to what is expected of them. Surely they have been taught to respect others, be kind and charitable, only think positively, etc. - but they have also been taught the inequality, the calls to aggression, the intolerance (exactly the same as the Bible - but we secularised, which created the conditions we see now). The ordinary, tolerant Muslims are as different from ISIS as you can get - they don't do the same things as ISIS, that's clear - but both ordinary Muslims and ISIS have been taught, know and understand the same thing - Sharia Law - and that's the part that gets difficult. It's the Sharia Law that needs changing, reforming, modifying, or at least, the intolerant parts of it - or scrapping altogether. People actually want to see ordinary Muslims on the streets in protest, just like they did after Charlie Hebdo and the publication of Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses, saying things like 'Change Sharia Law, no to gender bias, yes to homosexuality, yes to freedom to leave religion, etc.'. It took successive generations to institute the Civil Rights Act (in 1964) in America. Until then there was segregation - hard for us to even imagine now. It took until 1994 for definitions of rape to change English Law so that male rape became law -until then, males who had been raped had no legal recourse, and thus, no access to public services such as counselling. Pressure groups such as feminists and others marched, vocally protested and wrote publicly to make these changes possible. ISIS and ordinary Muslims are taught the same things just like black and white citizens living in America prior to 1964 were taught the same things about black/white inequality, just like the slave owners and slaves were taught the same things before that. If ISIS and ordinary Muslims are taught that homosexuality is wrong, then it only takes a flick of social condition changes before these punishments are acted out. ISIS and tolerant Muslims believe the same things - it's only the social conditions which enable the enactment of these beliefs, or not. Just as politicians work for us, the public, and do what we want, so ordinary Muslims need to get to a point where they can begin to push boundaries, call for changes, demand modifications - demand equality.

As an aside, it's also pointless to deny that western interference in other countries is not a factor. It is, and, ordinary many western citizens are angry on this count too. My view is that the current events are a 'perfect storm' of religion, western countries' interference and the increasing realisation that the latter may occur because of certain individuals' self-gain and profiteering ways. If I could, I would try Tony Blair for war crimes to send a strong message that war and personal gain never make good bedfellows.

Just as politicians work for us, the public, and do what we want in an ideal world, of course...:)

I think we can all agree that Tony Blair did a cracking job as Middle East Peace Envoy

/sarcasm off/

Watch Bitter Lake on iPlayer. It's almost certainly a bit biased - one guy's opinion - but very interesting.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02gyz6b/adam-curtis-bitter-lake

fourmummy I wouldn't say ISIS and "ordinary Muslims" are taught the same things. Their beliefs are varied. As always the fundamentalists are zealous and more in your face.

It can only be good if those who have a deep knowledge of Islamic tradition get ahead and refute the doctrine being pumped out by the armed crackpots, as in Slaggy's link

I have a logic fail however when the Jeremy Corbyn branch of political observers claim with a straight face that ISIS/Daesh have nothing to do with religion.

Ena you need to go further in your thinking.
I wouldn't say ISIS and "ordinary Muslims" are taught the same things. Their beliefs are varied. As always the fundamentalists are zealous and more in your face The difficulty with this separation between zealotry and moderation is that by the time we've accounted for Rotherham, Birmingham Trojan Horse Horse schools issue, Lutfur Rahman in Tower Hamlets, numerous assaults on Muslims who have left the religion, attitudes toward homosexuality ("Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality", says poll - www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality), not to mention the gender bias in the Muslim communities, who is left?

It can only be good if those who have a deep knowledge of Islamic tradition get ahead and refute the doctrine being pumped out by the armed crackpots, as in Slaggy's link - you don't have to be black to care about black issues, you don't have to be female to care about sexism, you don't have to have been abused as a child to care about child abuse. We are all living these issues every day. The only thing that Islamic scholars have more of is knowledge of Islamic texts (but there are many Europeans or Americans who also have authoritative explanations and viewpoints on these texts). Civil rights, fairness, justice, and equality are everybody's areas of expertise. If we'd left the civil rights movement in America to slave owners only, we'd be in a different place in history now.

We have two choices: civil rights movement or annihilation through perpetual war. The American civil rights movement in American was not only the result of black activism. Many white people also fought for equality and justice for all. What we need to do now is embrace the universal declaration of human rights and press for changes - as we do on every other issue that is unfair, unjust and unequal.

fourmummy

"... who is left?"

So from your perspective, all Muslims are evil extremists, right?

Is that what you got from everything I wrote? To answer your question, "absolutely not". Turn the issue around slightly:

How many Muslims would agree with the following statements:

• Muslims have a right to convert to other religions, or leave Islam without fear of persecution

-Muslim women have the same rights in everything, such as inheritance, divorce, as men

• Homosexuality, lesbianism, transgender, etc. a right that every Muslim should be able to exercise if they want to

It doesn't make Muislims evil or extreme if they disagree. It makes the statements which mandate against these things wrong on account of the universal declaration of human rights.

so how can you possibly say "... who is left?"

If you exclude Muslims who support ISIS, Charlie Hebdo events, homophobia, gender inequality, punishment for apostasy, ditto for blasphemy, Rotherham, Birmingham Trojan horse schools events, Lutfur Rahman, penalties for conversion to atheism, Judaism, or Christianity, then how many are left who support free speech, gender and sexual orientation equality, freedom to leave religion or conversion, etc.? Statistics show that there are some -but not many. If Muslims want these things but can't speak out, they will need to find a voice and march for these things. Silent support achieves some ends but vocal support goes further.

"Statistics show that there are some "

Show us your evidence.

When you've done that, show us how many Jehovah's witnesses are LGBT tolerant.

People actually want to see ordinary Muslims on the streets in protest, just like they did after Charlie Hebdo and the publication of Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses, saying things like 'Change Sharia Law, no to gender bias, yes to homosexuality, yes to freedom to leave religion, etc

YY ^

If ISIS and ordinary Muslims are taught that homosexuality is wrong, then it only takes a flick of social condition changes before these punishments are acted out. ISIS and tolerant Muslims believe the same things - it's only the social conditions which enable the enactment of these beliefs, or not. Just as politicians work for us, the public, and do what we want, so ordinary Muslims need to get to a point where they can begin to push boundaries, call for changes, demand modifications - demand equality

YY

excellent posts Four Mummy thank you.

Check out this man: Pretty amazing in my view.

www.vice.com/en_uk/read/open-mosque-taj-hargey-south-africa-934

Not only is he a radical, Hargey's also a hardcore fundamentalist, in that he rejects the Hadith – the book of the so-called "sayings of the Prophet" (compiled 200 years after the Prophet died) and the text used to form the outline of Sharia law. Unsurprisingly, Hargey also rejects Sharia itself.

To this end, Hargey took part of his salary as an Oxford don and started his own mosque in South Africa late last year. The place of worship, he says – unlike most around the world – is both gay-friendly and woman-friendly. Which is exactly why he's not getting on so well within the local community of sects, Imams and governing councils.

He has opened a gay friendly mosque and allows men and women to pray together. He rejects sharia Law.

"Show us your evidence"

That's a "no" then.

PigletJohn There are plenty of polls showing Muslim support for ideas, which which contravene the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR - which several Islamic countries opposed and didn't sign up to because of the specific reason that UDHR is at odds with Sharia Law) but far fewer, if any, agreeing with statements which directly support the UDHR. Please don't think that I am demonising Muslims. I am not. I am critical of a set of ideas. You can be the most engaging, wonderful, funny, intelligent person in the world, and still believe in intolerant ideas. I am calling for increased pressure for Muslims to join others in the calls for modification, amendment or change (or, deletion) of Sharia law. If Muslims have been told that it's impossible to amend, well, they'll just have to find a way to modify it. This is what happened in many other civil rights movements around the world. Don't you think that slaves in America were taught that their life is the natural order of things and can't be changed?

Limbo Thank you for that link. Totally inspiring. These conversations and actions are beginning to happen throughout the world but they need to gather pace if we are not to descend into perpetual war. There are many Muslims out there who have rejected Sharia law, modified it or left the religion altogether, but we need to support them and add our voices to the movement.

This thread is getting increasingly disturbing as a platform to air sweeping ignorant views - ie in the vein of what's left after Rotherham, Trojan Horse, Lutfur Rahman.. these very different, community specific, and complex issues which are being used to tar all British Muslims as some kind of insidious fifth column that only need the right circumstances to show their true colours :s This attitude speaks more to me of rising intolerance and inability to accept that actually there are universal shared human values rather than 'western values' that need to be enforced.. of course where injustices and discrimination exists there should be efforts to discuss, educate, reform as a society- but starting off with fixed assumptions, and prejudice about a huge varied 'other' group is an ugly business..

Very noticeable that fourmummy refers airily to "statistics" and "surveys" but shies away from requests for evidence.