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Have Muslim leaders been condemning the attacks?

197 replies

JumpandScore · 16/11/2015 19:52

It just occurred to me reading another thread (sorry!)

I am very much in the don't tar them all with the same brush camp, but a number of people have said why aren't many Muslims speaking out? It's true I haven't seen any reports of prominent Muslims condemning them. Have I missed them? Are they not being reported? Or are they keeping quiet?

OP posts:
PigletJohn · 17/11/2015 20:11

The actual poll

PigletJohn · 17/11/2015 20:17

Lonny

Did you mean page 9

"Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws"

"Agree 93%"

I was unable to find the question Puzzled refers to, "Do you support extreme violence?"

Maybe it is printed in invisible ink, or maybe she made it up.

TodmordensDog · 17/11/2015 20:32

Why should they? Does it not go without saying that reasonable people (from whatever faith) don't agree with the attacks?

I haven't heard my boss speaking out against the attacks, does that mean he agrees with them? No. You wouldn't make that assumption because he's not a Muslim, so why should a Muslim have to come out and make that point clear?

TheWoodenSpoonOfMischief · 17/11/2015 20:59

Puzzled are you sure they werent Hindus celebrating Diwali? I find it difficult to believe that a large public celebration of terrorism took place.

maybemyrtle · 17/11/2015 21:01

Lol woodenspoon I wondered that!

LimboNovember · 17/11/2015 22:01

The "sweets" part sounds rather odd for young men supposedly celebrating the attacks...

warmastoast · 17/11/2015 22:18

For what it's worth I think there should have been strong condemnation from the public of the attacks on the MSF hospital. The double standards of leaders in dismissing a targeted attack on vulnerable non-combatants and humanitarians in a protected space as 'collateral damage' should not be accepted and should be vocally protested. It is also a form of terrorism even if the victims were not Westerners.

Katarzyna79 · 17/11/2015 22:33

I agree with lonnyvonny it upsets me increasingly when I ammade to feel like I'm the other not British enough. Born here grew up here worked for a bit raising my kids here but I have to constantly show the world I'm not an extremist? If I'm not seen as openly condeming then I must be with the enemies right?

So when these questions arise I never join in seems futile. I dontbthink it makes any difference if leaders or muslims in general speak out sceptics and fascists will always whisper "they're all with Isis its just a show". I have this switch in my head and I just blank it now. Off radio switch channels if online don't usually reply but clearly I forgot to switch off today.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 17/11/2015 22:35

Puzzled are you sure they weren't Hindus celebrating Diwali?

Yes, I wondered that myself on first catching sight of them, but some of the things being yelled sadly left no doubt of what they were celebrating

I'm genuinely sorry if anyone believes (or maybe would just prefer) that I'm making any of this up, but I'm hardly responsible for something which appears in front of my face

Katarzyna79 · 17/11/2015 22:42

I'm not worried about backlash I'm too nice but I'm ready to give lip back if people threaten me I mean it's cowards who threaten a mother out with her 3 &5 year olds enough is enough. I'm sure I'll get depicted as a terrorist for defending myself too but I don't care I have a right to be treated fairly like everyone else I've not got blood on my hands.

As for arms deals oh it makes me laugh in a ironic way my bro worked for companies that make bullets and deal in sale of arms abroad. The very countries they bomb are the ones they arm too so these lovely leaders we have have blood on their hands. Oh bTw I stopped talking to my bro until he left that God forsaken job no ethics at all all about the bloody money literally blood money.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 17/11/2015 22:48

There is a video doing the rounds.

Of a bunch of brown people doing lots of celebrating.

It's because they won the cricket though. And it was taken back in the summer. Still, it's all semantics, eh?

Katarzyna Flowers

PigletJohn · 17/11/2015 23:37

I've seen a video of people dancing in the street and singing "no school tomorrow! All the children are dead!" but they aren't Muslims.

TheNewStatesman · 18/11/2015 02:27

"It's probably not being reported, just as the fact that the security guard who stopped who stopped him from entering the stadium and saved so many lives was a Muslim."

Actually, the a) there was no shortage of reportage--it was all over the news and social media; b) it turned out to be a fake.

"A compelling story about a heroic Muslim security guard stopping a suicide bomber from entering the Stade de France on Friday, saving perhaps hundreds of lives, is making the rounds on social media. But it's not true."

www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-34845882

Beebar · 18/11/2015 02:37

More muslims have been killed by the 'death cult' than anyone else. It would seem they're obliterating themselves.

Beebar · 18/11/2015 02:40

There are not enough Muslims decrying this heinous crime spree carried out in the name of their God. Fucking outrageous, it is.

fourmummy · 18/11/2015 06:32

I think that what people are struggling with, here and elsewhere, is the 'moderate' rather than the extreme part. The extreme is easy to deal with. Any heinous acts such as rape, murder, child abuse, terrorism are categorised into the extreme box - perpetrated by a bunch of lunatics and savages. This is a protective mechanism, to make us feel safe (conveniently ignoring that most rapes, child abuse incidents, domestic violence murders occur where the people are family, friends and acquaintances). The difficulty at the moment is that once we've categorised the Paris terrorists as extremists, we are still left with quite a large number of people (if you see this in a homogenised way) or community groups who: support or actively practise so-called honour killings, ask for Sharia Law, preach hate against the West and non-believers, Jews, etc. in public spaces, live in 'no-go' to English people communities in northern/south east towns, demonstrate in order to ask for bars and pubs to stop selling alcohol (Tower Hamlets), put those grill contraption things over women's faces (but, strangely enough, not men's- admittedly, I've only seen two women like this in my lifetime), try to segregate women from men at public meetings, etc.. I think that what people want to hear is not ordinary Muslims decry the terrorists (which is a fairly obvious thing to do, if you think about it. How could anyone support it?) but to say, publicly, I don't want Sharia Law here, In England, because we have English Law already (and it's not perfect, but there are constant pressures to reform it), I don't want to segregate women from men because women have the vote and have a say in public life, etc.. The thing is, some of the things that I mention above are also things that ordinary westerners are not too enamoured with, but here, we have pressure groups protesting, demonstrating, writing and calling out against Victoria's Secret shows (the other end of the spectrum, basically, to the burqa), pornography , alcohol abuse, other bad behaviour - homophobic attitudes, for example. There is no vocal Muslim group or groups saying these things. Is that important? Is it enough to believe it privately but not speak out? I don't know. We'd agree on the Victoria's Secret shows (can you tell that I hate them?) but they need to add their voices to the 'No Sharia Law', 'no segregation according to gender', 'yes to homosexuality' parts. These voices are there, and quite rightly so, but they are not very prominent. I think that most people don't care what colour, race or whatever someone is, or how people live their life. We are all too busy for this. If you want to do unspeakable things to each other while wearing a monkey suit, then go ahead, as long as you observe the social conventions around such acts. I work with a large number of Muslims who, privately, agree that they can't speak out about these things. They also agree that only some of these things are an issue, so there's a long way to go in terms of changing opinions (about homosexuality, for example). Some of these things are an issue in westernised cultures too, there's no doubt about that, but there are plenty of pressure groups arguing against them - and it's a great thing.

TheWoodenSpoonOfMischief · 18/11/2015 07:16

Sharia law is the laws that Muslims live by. It dictates when they pray, what they eat, how much to give to charity etc. it's not just about beheadings etc. that's why you probably won't find Muslims saying they are against sharia law.
Muslims are also bound to the laws of the country they live in so I doubt that they want to change the legal framework of the country but just want to practice their own ways of marriage and funeral rites, resolving minor disputes etc.

TheWoodenSpoonOfMischief · 18/11/2015 07:18

There's a lot of misinformation out there fed about Muslims as well as to Muslims.
I agree with what a poster said earlier - follow the money.

fourmummy · 18/11/2015 08:07

Wooden Spoon I said "follow the money" - it provides a good level of explanation for most things. How would Sharia law work in the context of English law? English law has gender neutral statutes on inheritance, for example, or rape. How can Sharia law be accommodated within English law?

TheWoodenSpoonOfMischief · 18/11/2015 08:33

As far as I know, Muslims already follow sharia law. They pray when they want, donate money when they want, eat what they want, wear a headscarf if they want, have Muslim marriage services etc They segregate themselves within their own circles.
I think the whole sharia law issue was something that was made into a big deal. It was to do with Muslims wanting to resolve minor disputes with each other within 'sharia court' ie a Muslim mediator.

TheWoodenSpoonOfMischief · 18/11/2015 08:45

Islamic law at the time was actually quite progressive and gave women rights. Obviously in this day and age, some of it isn't progressive.
Like the inheritance law. Times have changed, women are sometimes single parents, they may not have any support so the inheritance laws aren't fair anymore.
It's the same with mortgages and interest. Muslims aren't meant to deal with interest as at the time, it was often exploitative and crippled those who were already poor.
Now there's a push for Muslims to get sharia mortgages. A mortgage without interest. So they play around with words and now there's no interest just fees or something and Muslims are falling for it.
This is all being pushed through misinformation and some Muslims are accepting this kind of thing without questioning it.

warmastoast · 18/11/2015 08:49

Fourmummy you're now derailing a thread with a whole slew of islamophobic assumptions (which started with a sadly ignorant and accusatory question). British Muslims have to and believe in obeying British law- any personal/ religious laws they follow beyond that, eg divorce laws etc have to fall in with what is legally acceptable, just as it works for all other faith communities. As for the need to address social/ cultural attitudes - it's ridiculously simplistic to talk about all these things as a specifically Muslim issues when Muslims come from all over the world and there are so many different views, not to mention the way you take an extreme (like the afghan burqa) and start generalizing. It could be easier to tackle some problems according to the cultural community they come from or perhaps it's a wider social problem. It's not as if it hasn't been a long road to addressing homophobia in the West- Muslim countries were historically far more tolerant in fact, and even now it's US Christian evangelists stirring up hate in African countries.

Funding has been cut for a lot of the programmes supporting communities and that can actually sensitively analyse and try to address issues (as opposed to un constructive sweeping demonisation which carries on apace)

LimboNovember · 18/11/2015 11:01

The thing is, some of the things that I mention above are also things that ordinary westerners are not too enamoured with, but here, we have pressure groups protesting, demonstrating, writing and calling out against Victoria's Secret shows (the other end of the spectrum, basically, to the burqa), pornography , alcohol abuse, other bad behaviour - homophobic attitudes, for example. There is no vocal Muslim group or groups saying these things. Is that important? Is it enough to believe it privately but not speak out? I don't know

Good point.

Sharia law is the laws that Muslims live by

No not in the UK. The UK laws come first not Sharia it is not recognised in this country by the people who rule us.

It's the same with mortgages and interest. Muslims aren't meant to deal with interest as at the time

Thats interesting, we had a problem with a local shop, a huge hoo haa and the council said it was impossible to untangle all the ownership of the street, different housing rented out, the shop, a taxi business, it was all entangled and they could not work out who owned what! So many places all linked together.

LimboNovember · 18/11/2015 11:03

Funding has been cut for a lot of the programmes supporting communities and that can actually sensitively analyse and try to address issues

On Sky news a few days ago someone in Paris said France was well behind with all sorts of programs supposed to help in this area.

LimboNovember · 18/11/2015 11:06

puzzled

Thanks for the Dr Taj Link,

He seems to be a progressive Muslim, who allows men and women to pray together. He has had problems with the BCM though. I am glad he has spoken out, but I think he has also been threatened.