Greece part II

[Hullygully]

I would be very grateful if we could keep this about Greece, and those (two) who want to dance up and down jibing at Claig and calling her a fool and a kremlinbot and an anti-semite, start their own thread for that purpose.

Cheers

suzannecanthecan, it is a really fascinating and huge subject and a real war is not out of the question in the future. Merkel panicked and prevented it for now. I wish Mathanxiety was here. She has excellent knowledge on US/Russia/Ukraine etc. She lives in the States. I would also love to know what she thinks about what is happening in Greece. She is a left winger and has really good knowledge.

I think I've seen recent posts from Mathanxiety Claig, is it worth bringing her attention to this thread or should her non involvement be taken as unwillingness to get embroiled?

Claig, if the Greeks swept out their elected pro-Austerity govt. in a wave of anti-austerity anger, you'd hail it as the triumph of the people.

Ukrainians are (mostly) pro-EU and were pissed of that Yanukovich played them and made a deal with Russia.

When you made your thread you knew Osborne had cut £12 billion from the budget & the news had been it had mostly come from tax credits...finding it difficult to believe you didn't know it was an austerity budget - that's all the Tories have been banging on about for so long!

Russia is meddling hugely in Ukraine. I wish the US and the Uk and the EU would stick by their treaty obligations and actually protect Ukraine's territorial integrity - sadly, fat chance of that happening any time soon.

Why when you talk about the US, Ukraine etc. so much the motivations of Russia never get a look in - it all seems too suspicious for me. You never go on paragraph long explanations of the interests of the elites in Russia or what they're up to in Europe, despite the fact that they are very important players.

So in summary, you're guessing that an elite exists and they may be controlling politicians, with 0 evidence to back this up. OK.

I think the signs point towards serious humiliation for Tsipras and vindication for Germany. There may be some kind of clause that bailout funds only get given to Greece after they implement reforms, because, as Viviennemary says, they could just take the money and run. Would go very far as without reforms it probably wouldn't last 1 year let alone 3.

'is it worth bringing her attention to this thread'

I think it is worth asking her, because she loves politics and knows lots about it, so she must have a view on this, because this is the biggest crisis in EU history.

'if the Greeks swept out their elected pro-Austerity govt. in a wave of anti-austerity anger, you'd hail it as the triumph of the people'

It would depend it if it was really the people doing it or a Neo-Nazi coup and what effect that coup would then have on Europe and a possible war.

'Ukrainians are (mostly) pro-EU and were pissed of that Yanukovich played them and made a deal with Russia.'

There was an election in less than a year. I think they should have put it to the people because lots of the Russian speakers in Donetsk and Lugansk and Crimea did not have a chance to vote on the coup. If there was a coup in Mexico on the US border and a pro-Putin regime was installed, the US would be right to be displeased. Doing things like that are very dangerous to world peace and stability.

'When you made your thread you knew Osborne had cut £12 billion from the budget'

I didn't know it, I only saw those headlines and thought wow, Osborne has helped the working poor, well done. It is only after I heard all the analysis that I realised he took more than he gave.

'I wish the US and the Uk and the EU would stick by their treaty obligations and actually protect Ukraine's territorial integrity - sadly, fat chance of that happening any time soon.'

That would mean war. That would be horrendous for millions of people in Europe. That is why Merkel panicked and stayed it off.

'Why when you talk about the US, Ukraine etc. so much the motivations of Russia never get a look in - it all seems too suspicious for me.'

We have had threads on this and I have said what Russia motivations to take Crimea and protect Donetsk are. There is no secret about it.

'You never go on paragraph long explanations of the interests of the elites in Russia or what they're up to in Europe'

I don't know who they are as I don't live in Russia or speak Russian. I know of Putin and Medvedev and former economic adviser Glazyev, but that is it. But their strategy is to try and be friendly with Germany and France and prevent them joining a war against Russia, as far as I can see.

'So in summary, you're guessing that an elite exists and they may be controlling politicians, with 0 evidence to back this up. OK.'

I am sure that every country has elites, some elites are more powerful than others and some elites are subservient to others, and that politicians and PPEs are not the elites.

Claig ..... re your "No, you don't understand the game at all. The bankers want "austerity", an "austerity laboratory" and a neoliberal policy of smashing workers' right and pensions and wages followed by a plundering of all national assets under a forced privatisation programme at bargain basement prices. The bankers want to loot the country, which is why the people voted for Syriza to try and stop it. I thought you were a socialist."

I realise that in talking about 'peoples rights/democracy' you are unable to 'process' the democracy of the other 18 Eurozone States e.g. 85% of Germans are against a more money being pumped into Greece - so HAVE to blame the Western banks - but what percentage of the Euro 323 billion Greek Debt is owed to Western banks, 3,5, 10%???

As this is not going away, Claig is now blaming everyone 'western' for Greece's problems and my name was dragged into this by poster squidlydiddly (whatever) on a previous page.

Exhibit 'A' ... Re Claig always trumpeting Russia's cause - with some other posters we know so well on the pro Maxist Syriza Greek cause and announcing their victory laps.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2239022-Poroshenko-says-Ukraine-ready-for-total-war-against-Russia?pg=1

According to those papers about Kremlibots, they are never allowed to criticise the motherland or its leader; Claig can you tell us over the last few years in WHICH subjects you HAVE criticised Russia so that we can search?

Of course all this pro Sryiza posting has NOTHING to do with this contract/co-operation between Greece’s Marxists government and Russia’s State owned energy company Gazprom. lol

”Greece debt crisis:Greece admits it did sign a gas pipeline deal with Russia”
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-debt-crisis-greece-admits-it-did-sign-a-gas-pipeline-deal-with-russia-10381441.html

”Greece has said it has signed up to build a gas pipeline with Russia, worth €2 billion.”

”The South European Pipeline, as the project is called, will bring 47 billion cubic meters of gas from the Russian company Gazprom into Europe every year once it has been completed.”

” The EU is less likely to be celebrating the deal. It has tried to reduce the EU’s dependence on Gazprom oil.”

Greek secret deals with Russia as they take the money from Eurozone citizens mouths/economy, THAT is the real scandal.

Oh dear, we're back to the Kremlinbot accusation.
I realised that Alyosha believes it, but I didn't realise you actually believed it, Isitmebut, even though you started it and have spread it for months on here. I thought it was just your sense of humour, but now I see you really actually believe it.

You are probably someone who believes that everyone who opposed the Iraq War was on Saddam's payroll or that Farage, who opposed Cameron's intervention in Libya, was on Ghadaffi's payroll or is also on Putin's payroll because he said he admired Putin as a political operator.You probably think Bob Dylan was anti-American because he wrote the song "Masters of War". You probably think Jeremy Corbyn is on Putin's payroll because he supports Syriza. You probably think this country's greatest real conservative journalist and political commentator who rights in our real conservative Mail on Sunday, Peter Hitchens, is on Putin's payroll because of what he thinks about Putin

'It’s Nato that’s empire-building, not Putin'

www.spectator.co.uk/features/9459602/its-nato-thats-empire-building-not-putin/

'I realise that in talking about 'peoples rights/democracy' you are unable to 'process' the democracy of the other 18 Eurozone States'

If they cared about democracy, then why didn't they ask European tapayers if they were in agreement with the politicians and bankers transferring the liabilities of private and French banks to the European taxpayer. Why are they bailing out Greece with extension loans of 50 billion dollars of European taxpayer money ad why don't they let Greece exit the Eurozone? Why don't they ask the European people if they think Greece should leave the Eurozone in a European-wide referendum if they believe in democracy?

'Claig can you tell us over the last few years in WHICH subjects you HAVE criticised Russia so that we can search?'

I haven't criticised Putin's Russia because I don't know the ins and outs of what Ptin does in Russia. If he supports wind turbines and believes in global warming then I will criticise that, but I know that like all world leaders he has to play the game and go along with that. On Ukraine, I think Putin has nothing to be criticised for as he could easily have taken Kiev in 2 weeks, as he said, but he has refrained from doing so as he wants to stop a world war and wants to negotiate with Merkel to prevent it happening eve though Poroshenko threatens him that Ukraine is in total war against Russia for the sake of European civiilization.

'Of course all this pro Sryiza posting has NOTHING to do with this contract/co-operation between Greece’s Marxists government and Russia’s State owned energy company Gazprom'

You have to understand that Greece is in the US orbit and things are going to stay that way and the US wants Germany to provide some debt relief for Greece in order to ease up on their intransigent austerity that risks turning Greece into a failed state. The US wanst to limit Russia's economic developement. The coup in Ukraine means that Ukraine can cut off Russia's oil exports to Europe via Ukraine at any time if needed. So Putin had to switch to South Stream. The EU has blocked the South Stream route by political means. But Germany is desperate for oil and Euriope will be plunged into another recession if it can't get the oil. The US wants it to use oil from Azerbaijan via Turkey and gas from Qatar etc, but there is not enough oil from Azerbaijan, and therefore the US accepts that for the time-being Europe still has to get its oil from Russia but it doesn't want this to happen via Turkey/Greece, it prefers it via Romania/Bulgaria because ut can more easily be switched off if needed. Greece is bankrupt and open to any deal that can help it. But Putin knws that the US can stop it going through Greece if it wants to. There is nothing Gazprom or Putin can do about it.

You probably think the brilliant UKIP MEP, Diane James, is on Putin's payroll. Diane James is worth a thousand puppets, just like Peter Hitchens is.

"Ukip MEP Diane James says she admires 'nationalist' leader of Russia Vladimir Putin because he is a 'very strong leader'

A Ukip MEP has praised Russian president Vladimir Putin as a ‘very strong leader’ who has ‘put Russia first’.

Diane James, Ukip’s Justice Spokesman, also applauded Mr Putin's nationalist credentials and argued he was forced into invading Ukraine because of the European Union.

Ukip leader Nigel Farage sparked a row last year when he hailed Russian President as a ‘brilliant operator'.

Taking part in a women leaders' debate on LBC radio, Mrs James - who is considered a potential successor of Nigel Farage - said: ‘Nigel went on record saying if you provoke the Russian bear you get a reaction.

‘I admire him from the point of view that he’s standing up for his country. He is very nationalist.

‘He is a very strong leader. He is putting Russia first, and he has issues with the way the EU encouraged a change of government in the Ukraine which he felt put at risk a Russian population in that country,' she said."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3033322/UKIP-MEP-Diane-James-says-admires-nationalist-leader-Russia-Vladimir-Putin-Russia-first.html

One thing is for sure I would say Enda Kenny's days are well and truly numbered if Greece pulls off a better deal. Or even if Greece does not manage to pull one off. Going cap in hand to Germany and putting banks first was not popular in Ireland and there is a lot of anger in the air there as Irish style austerity much trumpeted as the way forward for Greece of course -- has hurt many people really badly.

There will be fallout from this all over Europe, especially in places like Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Italy, mainly because there are so many in those places who feel they have nothing to lose by taking a radical left option. In the case of Ireland this will be Sinn Fein.

The Greek referendum is an example of playing hardball just as Cameron's EU referendum is. In the case of the UK, the US (not a European state) waits in the wings and in the case of Greece, Russia (a European state) does. Well done to Greece for exploring all of its options here. The fact is, Greece does have options and Greek politicians have an obligation to do their best for Greek voters. They do not owe Schäuble anything.

Hully, it seems your thread has been taken over by someone who has adopted the cheap tactic of tarring those who do not agree with her with the label 'Kremlinbots', thus seeking to discredit and silence them.

I think this is a huge pity because the question of a Greek exit from the Eurozone could also have repercussions in the UK, which never joined in the first place of course, but which is nevertheless looking at UKIP momentum and the UKIP agenda becoming a driving force in political discourse. British governments of the left and the right have consistently refused to play the game from the pov of Britain-within-Europe, preferring the transatlantic alliance posture. And Marine Le Pen continues to gather steam in France.

What a shame Tsipras has rolled over to have his tummy tickled, sentencing the Greek people to more and harder hardship. As Varoufakis says in that Grauniad piece, it's as if Germany is pushing for a Grexit without being open about it. I believe that is now inevitable, which will mean 3 or 4 years of real pain for Greece but eventual re-growth of their economy as labour etc will be cheap due to the weakness of their new currency.

Varoufakis also says it could take 2 years to get a new currency in place: there is a way it can be introduced and also be credible and available to just about everyone, impossible to forge and actually be the property of the holder. Build a currency on the Blockchain and put a wallet on the phone of every Greek citizen. Building it on the Blockchain makes it finite, thus backing it with something, in this case mathematics, and takes it out of the hands of the corrupt bankers and decentralises control.

Decided to consult Hitchens to see his take on this. He doesn't know much about it or Greece and says he doesn't know what will happen, but he does have some interesting comments on what it has shown us about the EU, which of course he is against.

"The enjoyable paradox now is that a far stronger threat to the EU’s centralised democratism now comes from the Left, especially from Syriza in Greece and their Spanish equivalent Podemos.

So many paradoxes follow. It is the Utopian Marxist left, not the conservative patriotic right, that has actually come into full-scale national conflict with the imperial power of the EU, even though the EU is, at heart, a leftist utopian project. The trouble is that, while these movements quite rightly resent the imposition of mad Procrustean economic policies on them, weirdly punitive and deterrent given the liberal relativism that lies at the heart of the EU, they are fighting against their own globalist anti-national ideals.

In fact the purest exposition of modern Greek nationalism is left-wing. The hardline nationalist right is by contrast a sideshow. You might claim this has always been so because of its Byronic, radical origins. But it hasn’t. The last Greek government to say ‘Oxi’ (no!) to an arrogant continental neighbour was that of General Ioannis Metaxas, a monarchist tyrant, who refused Italian demands for occupation rights to parts of Greek territory.

The EU’s response to this rebellion has so far been imperial far more than it has been leftist. France has been more willing to see the problem from Greece’s point of view. But Germany, and its many desperately sycophantic self-abasing clients in the ‘new’ formerly Soviet-dominated EU states, whose leaders would have been ready for their people to eat thistles if it was the price of getting into the Euro, continues to support a policy of exemplary punishment for rebels. I think all this gives us a clue as to what the EU really is, deep, deep down.

As I write, I have no idea how or where it may end, but I am reminded of Dominic Cummings’s warning about Britain’s government.

‘Everyone thinks there's some moment, like in a James Bond movie, where you open the door and that's where the really good people are, but there is no door.’

There is no door in Brussels or Berlin either. These people are human, they lack sleep, they don’t understand economics, they let petty ambition or dogma blind them to obvious facts. They may not even have been very bright in the first place."

hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/07/some-thoughts-on-the-greek-crisis.html

'They may not even have been very bright in the first place'

Not more PPEs, they're everywhere!

'The trouble is that, while these movements quite rightly resent the imposition of mad Procrustean economic policies on them, weirdly punitive and deterrent given the liberal relativism that lies at the heart of the EU, they are fighting against their own globalist anti-national ideals.'

That is why Syriza will ultimately lose. They want to be in the EU, they think they can change it. They think the bankers will give in, but they won't. Syriza may get small victories, but they will be Pyrrhic. Ultimately the bankers will beat them. They said "Oxi", but they didn't mean it.

Bob Crow say NO2EU and he meant it. I don't know what Jeremy Corbyn's position is.

Farage said "Oxi" and he means it. The People's Army is the only game in town for now.

'Build a currency on the Blockchain and put a wallet on the phone of every Greek citizen. Building it on the Blockchain makes it finite, thus backing it with something, in this case mathematics, and takes it out of the hands of the corrupt bankers and decentralises control'

Imagine if they actually did that!!
If a country adopted a crypto currency , what if other countries wanted to follow suit.
Wouldn't that just be too much of a threat to established power structures, a big fat 'up yours' to established power structures.
It just wouldn't be allowed...Surely? ?

One slight flaw is that an awful lot of Greeks are really old and don't have bank cards, mobile phones or internet...goats, now. Then you're talking.

If they all have goats then no wonder the Germans want to impose austerity.

well, quite.

Although at least they have milk and meat.

That's the beauty of the Blockcnain suzanne, it's not controlled by any one entity, it's democracy in action in that anybody with a computer or phone can take part, not just in using the currency, but also in the creation of it by using their device to 'mine' new coins. The private banks we bailed out are starting to take crypto seriously as, as Jamie Dimon put it, "it's going to take our lunch money".

What does austerity actually mean? Have a look here:

A report written by someone who is actually living in Greece

It would depend it if it was really the people doing it or a Neo-Nazi coup and what effect that coup would then have on Europe and a possible war.

It wasn't a neo-nazi coup. Far right & far left elements were involved, but the majority of those involved in overthrowing Yanukovich were ordinary people. I think ordinary people are allowed the right to protest without thinking of the geopolitical consequences of their actions. I think Greece had a right to have a vote on the bailout, even if I think it was an idiotic move.

There was an election in less than a year. I think they should have put it to the people because lots of the Russian speakers in Donetsk and Lugansk and Crimea did not have a chance to vote on the coup

The Ukrainian government tried to bring ballot boxes to the east, but the Russian separatists stopped them and made it hard to hold the election.

If there was a coup in Mexico on the US border and a pro-Putin regime was installed, the US would be right to be displeased. Doing things like that are very dangerous to world peace and stability

Really??? What would have been your reaction if Germany invaded Greece to stop a pro Russian party taking power?!

One of the reasons lefties like me have a more disillusioned view of the USA is because we don't think countries have a right to overturn popular political movements that threaten their interests, as the USA had so much fun doing in the 50s, 60s and 70s.

I thought you were all for people power?

I didn't know it, I only saw those headlines and thought wow, Osborne has helped the working poor, well done. It is only after I heard all the analysis that I realised he took more than he gave.

Please don't insult our intelligence claig, for someone who is as politically aware as yourself to not know that the tories were proposing £12 billion of cuts, primarily from welfare, is just unbelievable.

That would mean war. That would be horrendous for millions of people in Europe. That is why Merkel panicked and stayed it off.

I'm not so sure about that. What's Russia's interest in a war in Europe? Their oligarchs are fat and happy. They want to go on holiday in Paris and buy property in London.

He's got what he wants already - a permanently destabilised Ukraine. I note that there are no popular uprisings in Kharkov to bring Russian separatists in. I also remember the huge popular pro-Ukrainian revolution protesters in the delightful lenin square in Donetsk. I think Putin truly believed his own propaganda and thought the Russian speakers of Eastern Ukraine would welcome them with open arms. He's been sadly disillusioned. He has no desire for uncomfortable scenes of Russians killing fellow Russian speaking Christian Orthodox peoples. He's had enough trouble already with troops coming home in coffins.

We have had threads on this and I have said what Russia motivations to take Crimea and protect Donetsk are. There is no secret about it.

So you believe in people power, but not when it threatens Russian interests. Which other countries are allowed to invade their neighbours? Should Italy be able to invade Greece if they elect a pro-Russian government?

I don't know who they are as I don't live in Russia or speak Russian. I know of Putin and Medvedev and former economic adviser Glazyev, but that is it. But their strategy is to try and be friendly with Germany and France and prevent them joining a war against Russia, as far as I can see.

You don't speak Greek or German either, but you're perfectly capable of talking about their elites.

I am sure that every country has elites, some elites are more powerful than others and some elites are subservient to others, and that politicians and PPEs are not the elites.

You must have an idea who the elites are, surely?

Mathanxiety - I don't think Claig is a Kremlinbot/troll because she disagrees with me. Many people on this thread disagree with me, but I don't think they are Kremlinbots.

I think Claig could be a Kremlinbot/troll, because her opinion and views change thread to thread depending on her agenda.

She also talks a lot about elites, countries' interests in other countries' internal affairs, but she never, ever, ever, criticises Russia, Putin or the Russian elites. No one else is immune from her criticism.

Moving on from Claig...

I'm also a bit confused - Obama has been extremely open he wants the UK to stay in the EU. Is this a game of reverse psychology realpolitik or something else in your opinion? Or just that we have more options than most European countries?

I very much hope the upcoming referendum in this country will see politicians from Labour & the Conservatives talk positively and honestly about the benefits of Europe - and what must be done to make it better. It needs to be more democratic & more accountable. It needs to be less wasteful.

I don't think Grexit spells the end of the Euro, nor do I think it spells the end of Europe. That's wishful thinking from hard right & left.

I'm also curious, as a side point, why the hard left in the UK loves Russia so much still. It's no longer a communist country - it's a crony capitalist country where those lucky enough in the early days of the breakup of the USSR were able to loot as much as possible. Of course, the Chicago school of economics must take (some of) the blame for this.

Re: blockchain - absolutely not!

I really recommend people read Thomas Piketty. He explains very well the pitfalls of the gold standard.

And there is something quite obviously egalitarian and neo-liberal about it all - for you to mine bitcoin or any other crypto currency you need to have access to the internet and some serious, serious processing power to make it worth your while and overcome the high electricity costs of mining the money.

As time goes on, only those with very expensive kit can mine it, so it would end up concentrating wealth even more in the hands of the already privileged than is already the case!

There's a reason the libertarian right in the USA loves the idea so much.

*unegalitarian

'You don't speak Greek or German either, but you're perfectly capable of talking about their elites.'

I do speak German as it happens. But I don't know much about internal German politics (in fact nothing) so I don't have a clue who their elites are.

'You must have an idea who the elites are, surely?'

I don't have a clue who they are. You keep suggesting they are Jewish.

'No one else is immune from her criticism.'

Wrong. Farage is 100% immune.

But this is getting tedious. If you want me to explain what is happening in Ukraine to you so that when you next go back to Donetsk you are more aware, then start a thread about it. This thread is about the Greek crisis and the EU.