Greece part II

[Hullygully]

I would be very grateful if we could keep this about Greece, and those (two) who want to dance up and down jibing at Claig and calling her a fool and a kremlinbot and an anti-semite, start their own thread for that purpose.

Cheers

"I think the ECB denying liquidity to the Greek banks was a banker trick to try and intimidate the people and yet the Greek people still stuck two fingers up to them and voted "Oxi"."

Why should Eurozone taxpayers fund Greek capital flight? ECB made the right move. I'm a socialist and I wouldn't want to pay for the Greek superrich to shift their capital out and invest it in the London superprime market.

"Alyosha, I thought you were a socialist, what kind of socialist are you? A Blairite PPE one?"

I think we should have higher taxes and high public spending on infrastructure, schools & hospital. I think the welfare bill should be shifted onto businesses as much as possible without harming job growth. But I think the poorest in society should have a strong safety net. I would say I am a socialist but many socialists would think I am not one - I am definitely on the right of the Labour party.

"I am People's Army - both socialist and capitalist, both Jeremey Corbyn and Thatcher - common sense."

Doesn't make much sense to me. They're contradictory.

Also you love Osborne's budget, and he has been lambasted by both Thatcherites & Socialists for different reasons.

'Why should Eurozone taxpayers fund Greek capital flight?'

Because the Greeks are Eurozone taxpayers too and they voluntarily gave up their sovereign currency to pool it with the bankers' Euro currency and therefore the European Central Bank has a duty to provide liquidity to Greek banks so that Greek taxpayers can take their savings out. They have no right to tell people what they can and cannot do with their own money. They are not dictators, they are supposed to be under the control of the puppet politicians.

"Because the Greeks are Eurozone taxpayers too and they voluntarily gave up their sovereign currency to pool it with the bankers' Euro currency and therefore the European Central Bank has a duty to provide liquidity to Greek banks so that Greek taxpayers can take their savings out. They have no right to tell people what they can and cannot do with their own money. They are not dictators, they are supposed to be under the control of the puppet politicians."

What if they didn't pay any tax? As many Greeks don't.

'What if they didn't pay any tax? As many Greeks don't.'

Most of the ordinary people paid. Their oligarchs, their major corporations, their bureaucrats and their corrupt political class didn't, but that is the same nearly everywhere.

"Jean-Claude Juncker can’t shake off Luxembourg’s tax controversy

The tax deals offered to major companies by Luxembourg during Jean-Claude Juncker’s time as prime minister are being investigated by his own organisation as illegal state aid – and have outraged the nations he is supposed to unite"

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/14/jean-claude-juncker-luxembourg-tax-deals-controversy

Oh, and I expect their big bankers didn't pay, but that is only to be expected. Maybe they threatened to leave and take their business elsewhere. They are known not to be above that sort of thing.

Most of the ordinary people paid. Their oligarchs, their major corporations, their bureaucrats and their corrupt political class didn't, but that is the same nearly everywhere.

Complete bollocks: www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/09/tax-evasion-greece

www.wsj.com/articles/greece-struggles-to-get-citizens-to-pay-their-taxes-1424867495

Not one single doctor in Greece had declared income over 12,000 Euros in one year.

Tax evasion in Greece is much higher than in Western european countries, in fact I think it's higher then in even Italy!

You don't believe The Economist do you?

Are you sure you are a socialist? Are you one of those PPEs?

And you quote the Wall Street Journal? Are you having a laugh? Do you read the RMT union magazine or do you prefer Murdoch's Wall Street Journal and his Fox News?

What Oxford college did you study PPE at?

Do you know who Bob Crow was? He wasn't a PPE, that's for sure!

Bob Crow. Yep I remember him.

He was the ultra socialist who lived in council housing despite earning a fucking fortune from union subs whilst there was a massive shortage of social housing for families on low income.

Yes the man was definitely into helping the poorest into society at the expense of those further up the ladder by redistribution of wealth through the taxation and benefits system.

I have the up most respect for the man.

Not really seeing why bring up his name in this conversation is an advert for much and really is a bastion of ethics.

'He was the ultra socialist who lived in council housing '

Because those were his principles. I disagree with that, but that is how Bob was - a socialist, and incidentally part of the NO2EU campaign.

I brought Bob up because the RMT union magazine's position on Greece, a real socialist position, would support Syriza, a real socialist party, against the Economist or Murdoch's Wall Street Journal's reporting.

What a pity you're responding with ad hominen attacks rather than actually trying to find some evidence to counter the very obvious and well documented fact that Greeks don't pay much tax.

I brought Bob up because the RMT union magazine's position on Greece, a real socialist position, would support Syriza, a real socialist party, against the Economist or Murdoch's Wall Street Journal's reporting.

Are you saying you're a socialist now? I thought you didn't like neat little political boxes?

I say I'm a socialist.

I see you're still obsessed with trying to find out who I am.

'I see you're still obsessed with trying to find out who I am.'

Believe me, I don't care who you are. I am joking about PPEs, not you. I know you are not a PPE and have never studied at Oxford, that takes brains.

The Greeks don't pay tax because that is how their system has worked for years. The Greeks don't trust the state, everything about their history has taught them not to. But that is why there needs to be root and branch change, and why, if Syriza really does try and act for the people, there is a chance to change the old crony system.

Could we get back to Greece, please claig?

Obviously I got under your skin on the other thread,

But as you kept banging on about not getting off topic, let's get back to Greece!

There's lots of evidence that there's a tax paying problem in Greece. Do you deny that ordinary Greeks don't pay much tax?

"Believe me, I don't care who you are. I am joking about PPEs, not you. I know you are not a PPE and have never studied at Oxford, that takes brains."

Why do you keep asking then? If you want to call me stupid, call me stupid.

'Could we get back to Greece, please claig?'

Absolutely. But I always throw jokes in about PPEs and Farage, because I think they are funny.

Hully - yes! I 100% agree (for the first time) - that is exactly what Syrzia need to do. If the state works for Greeks, the Greeks will pay taxes. But their current form - with Syrzia hiring many public sector workers back right after their election - is not inspiring. They need to get their act together.

'Why do you keep asking then?'

I am not asking you.

I am joking when I say "Are you sure you are a socialist? Or are you a PPE?"

It's rhetorical. I know you're neither.

So you don't really like either Farage or PPE? Good to know.

Sorry claig, I lack an internal view into your mind so I can't know when your questions are rhetorical (or not).

But back to Greece - do you deny that ordinary Greeks don't pay much tax?

I absolutely love Farage and it makes me laugh to see him take on the metropolitan elite. The more they hate him, the more I laugh.

'do you deny that ordinary Greeks don't pay much tax?'

I don't believe the half of the stories the Daily Mail prints about it just as I don't believe the half of the stories the Daily Mail prints about benefit scroungers in this country. The elite has to try and smear ordinary people for the sake of divide and rule in order to get the turkeys to vote for Christmas and support the bankers. I'm with Bob Crow and the RMT on this one.

I don't believe the half of the stories the Daily Mail prints about it just as I don't believe the half of the stories the Daily Mail prints about benefit scroungers in this country. The elite has to try and smear ordinary people for the sake of divide and rule in order to get the turkeys to vote for Christmas and support the bankers. I'm with Bob Crow and the RMT on this one.

That's funny, I swear a remember a thread not too long ago where you were applauding George Osborne's benefit cutting budget!

What sources would you accept as showing Greeks don't pay much tax?

Greece is a much odder place than people realise.