Greece part II

[Hullygully]

I would be very grateful if we could keep this about Greece, and those (two) who want to dance up and down jibing at Claig and calling her a fool and a kremlinbot and an anti-semite, start their own thread for that purpose.

Cheers

Alyosha, for you own peace of mind, try to understand that it is possible to like some things a person does and not others. One can like some of Thatcher's policies, but not all of them. It really isn't that hard to cope with.

Not that I have any idea what claig thinks re dear neo-lib Margaret, apart from it being a good thing not to join the euro.

'Obama's been on the phone a lot: Greece isn't getting what it wants.'

Germany is more important than Greece to America. But America will decide what happens. It wants Germany to pay and sort the problem out and it has said it wants debt restructuring which Germany has refused to consider. America wants Greece to not be a failed state and to remain in its orbit and it expects Germany to see to it. It doesn't want Germany to lose too much face but I think it does want to get Germany to change its intransigent position.

'I thought you liked Thatcher who did all of the above?'

I didn't like those bits.

'Why do the "bankers" want to enslave Greeks? '

Because they want to loot the country and privatise its assets and this is the big one they want to dictate the deals for the oil and gas off Greece's shores when Greece are in a bankrupt state and have to take what they are offered. A slave populaton cannot rebel and object to being robbed.

Hully, claig indicated that she appreciated Thatcher's reduction of Union powers & her privatisation of several industries.

And she loved Osborne's most recent austerity budget.

Which is why I find it hard to reconcile her views on austerity here to her views on austerity in a country where we actually have the money not to have to do austerity as hard as we are doing it.

"Germany is more important than Greece to America. But America will decide what happens. It wants Germany to pay and sort the problem out and it has said it wants debt restructuring which Germany has refused to consider. America wants Greece to not be a failed state and to remain in its orbit and it expects Germany to see to it. It doesn't want Germany to lose too much face but I think it does want to get Germany to change its intransigent position. "

Doesn't seem to be working though, does it? I agree that's what the US wants, but they don't have the influence you think they have. Not unless they start stumping up some serious cash.

"I didn't like those bits."

Which bits did you like? I remember you liking the big bang, privatisation, unions being curbed....sounds an awful lot like the things you were ranting against just now...?

"Because they want to loot the country and privatise its assets and this is the big one they want to dictate the deals for the oil and gas off Greece's shores when Greece are in a bankrupt state and have to take what they are offered. A slave populaton cannot rebel and object to being robbed."

And how will staying in the Euro achieve this? The easiest way this could be accomplished would be by Greece crashing out and wealthy banks would then be able to snap up all the assets they wanted.

'claig indicated that she appreciated Thatcher's reduction of Union powers & her privatisation of several industries.'

Because the unions were too strong at the time. I believe in balance which is why Thatcher had to teach the unions a lesson at that time. But I never liked privatisation which is why I support Jeremy Corbyn. I would renationalise the railways, gas, electricty, the Royal Mail, water and then the banks.

I don't like energy companies ripping off ordinary people to the tune of £1 billion.

"Energy giants guilty of rip-off bills - but won't be broken up: Watchdogs criticise 'Big Six' firms for overcharging loyal customers by £1.2BILLION"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3151646/Energy-giants-guilty-rip-bills-won-t-broken-Watchdogs-criticise-firms-hitting-loyal-customers-standard-variable-tariffs.html

The privatisation ideas are terrible. One of the things they want to do is line Greece's enormous coastline with fish farms. That'll go well with tourism, but joined-up thinking? hahahaha.

Why do the "bankers" want to enslave Greeks? What are they going to do with these enslaved peoples?

use them to provide an income stream, a gift that keeps giving

'but they don't have the influence you think they have. Not unless they start stumping up some serious cash.'

I think they do have that power if they want to use it. Whether they want to use it is another matter.

'Which bits did you like? I remember you liking the big bang, privatisation, unions being curbed;"

You remember wrong on privatisation. But this is all irrelevant to this thread so I am not going to go into all that here.

'And how will staying in the Euro achieve this? The easiest way this could be accomplished would be by Greece crashing out and wealthy banks would then be able to snap up all the assets they wanted.'

No because they would then have a patriotic left wing communist government, Syriza, with the PPE finance minister kicked out, and they would nationalise all the banks or they would have a patriotic right wing government, Golden Dawn, which would nationalise the banks. The Establishment parties have been discredited and Samaras resigned last week.

So, just to be clear:

You love the latest Osborne Budget despite him ripping out £12 billion of spending and hitting the poorest the hardest, but you don't think similar austerity should happen in Greece.

You like Thatcher because she curbed the powers of the Unions & deregulated markets.

But you're unhappy the same thing is going to happen in Greece, because of reasons.

How do you know the proposals for Greece organised Labour are any better/worse than what Thatcher proposed?

Suzannecanthecan - how on earth will Greek people provide bankers with an income stream?

claig - what can the US threaten the EU with if we don't do what they want? They could put up protectionist barriers, but I imagine you'd probably like those, as they're a core tenet of most hard left/right wing parties.

What would nationalising the banks solve?

Do you think Osborne should nationalise the banks?

The difference with Greece is that it has been a deliberate trick by the banks who worked in collusion with the corrupt political class to falsify the figures to enter the Euro so that the French and German banks could make cheap loans to the corrupt political class who spent it on contracts to French and German governments and pocketed some of it in Swiss bank accounts and now want to loot Greece in an "austerity laboratory".

I don't believe that has happened in Britain. I prefer real conservatives (not modernisers) to socialists, I prefer Thatcher to Gordon Brown and Farage to Tony Blair, but I don't like corrupt conservatives or corrupt socialists or corrupt political classes which is what Greece had.

I believe in balance. In Greece, the "austerity laboratory" has gone too far which is why I oppose it for balance.
In the UK, I don't suport the Conservatives anymore because I think they are out of touch PPEs and now I vote for the People's Army and Farage for balance. But one day if Farage goes too far, then I would switch to Corbyn for balance.

'What would nationalising the banks solve?

Do you think Osborne should nationalise the banks?'

Yes I think he should. It would mean that all their profits would return to the people, unlike now where the people are screwed by only ending up paying for all their losses. It would mean the banks were under the control of the state (which represents the people) so that investment could be directed to house building and infrastructure rather than rigging LIBOR markets and paying bankers' bonuses. It would mean tbey would not be able to blackmail the country by saying they want to leave and go elsewhere.

'claig - what can the US threaten the EU with if we don't do what they want?'

I thought you lived in Donetsk. Don't you understand what is happening in Ukraine and why America has done it? They have already given Germany a mighty headache over Ukraine, the sanctions on Russia have affected German business and their business leaders are begging Merkel to ease up on them, and Merkel panicked and rushed to meet Putin with Hollande in tow to desperately string together the Minsk agreement in case the US turned up the heat and plunged Germany into a nightmare situation in Ukraine which of course it will have to pay for in the end. Nuland was on tape saying "Fuck the EU" and that is what will happen to the EU and Germany if they don't play ball, and this crisis is teaching Germany another lesson and they will have to offer debt restructuring even though they insisted they wouldn't, in my opinion.

And of course there is the elephant in the room, TTIP. America wants TTIP and if the European political class think they are too big for their boots and object to it, then they are going to find out who is boss by having all sorts of financial crises like Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ukraine. In the end they will do as they are told.

The difference with Greece is that it has been a deliberate trick by the banks who worked in collusion with the corrupt political class to falsify the figures to enter the Euro so that the French and German banks could make cheap loans to the corrupt political class who spent it on contracts to French and German governments and pocketed some of it in Swiss bank accounts and now want to loot Greece in an "austerity laboratory".

Corruption on all sides. It's not unreasonable to ask Greece to stop being corrupt and stop using money to bribe voters and actually start collecting taxes.

I believe in balance. In Greece, the "austerity laboratory" has gone too far which is why I oppose it for balance.
In the UK, I don't suport the Conservatives anymore because I think they are out of touch PPEs and now I vote for the People's Army and Farage for balance. But one day if Farage goes too far, then I would switch to Corbyn for balance.

But why do you support austerity in the UK?!

Yes I think he should. It would mean that all their profits would return to the people, unlike now where the people are screwed by only ending up paying for all their losses. It would mean the banks were under the control of the state (which represents the people) so that investment could be directed to house building and infrastructure rather than rigging LIBOR markets and paying bankers' bonuses. It would mean tbey would not be able to blackmail the country by saying they want to leave and go elsewhere.

Can't we just tax them loads? I'd rather not have all of their liabilities on our books... Osborne of course cut the banking levy.

I thought you lived in Donetsk. Don't you understand what is happening in Ukraine and why America has done it? They have already given Germany a mighty headache over Ukraine, the sanctions on Russia have affected German business and their business leaders are begging Merkel to ease up on them, and Merkel panicked and rushed to meet Putin with Hollande in tow to desperately string together the Minsk agreement in case the US turned up the heat and plunged Germany into a nightmare situation in Ukraine which of course it will have to pay for in the end. Nuland was on tape saying "Fuck the EU" and that is what will happen to the EU and Germany if they don't play ball, and this crisis is teaching Germany another lesson and they will have to offer debt restructuring even though they insisted they wouldn't, in my opinion.

Well it's because I lived in Donetsk I know you're speaking completely rubbish. As I outlined extensively on the other thread. Russia started this crisis, Russia is the one prolonging it. What would a "nightmare situation" in Ukraine look like for Germany?

And of course there is the elephant in the room, TTIP. America wants TTIP and if the European political class think they are too big for their boots and object to it, then they are going to find out who is boss by having all sorts of financial crises like Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ukraine. In the end they will do as they are told.

Are you blaming the European financial crisis on the US now? I thought you loved the USA?

Of course Greece needs to sort out corruption. I would put all the previous political class on trial for a start and then stop the cartels, tax the oligarchs, stop the clientelism etc. But I would give ordinary people a break, and give them medicines and their small pensions etc. I'm with the people not the bankers, because i am just one of the people and not a banker myself.

'But why do you support austerity in the UK?!'

I don't. I am People's Army not Conservative. We are against the bedroom tax, for the scrapping of tuition fees for science, technology and medicine degrees, for a £3 billion injection into the NHS, against TTIP etc

'Can't we just tax them loads?'

No because they don't pay, they always find a trick and a PPE to get out of it

"Barclays has revealed it paid £113m in corporation tax to the UK in 2009, 2.4% of its £4.6bn global annual profit.

Labour MP Chuka Umunna, of the Treasury Select Committee, who requested the detail, described it as "shocking"."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12511912

And anyway, the state should control all of their salaries and bonuses, take all of their profits and direct all of their investment into things that help the people and the country.

'What would a "nightmare situation" in Ukraine look like for Germany?'

War with Russia of course, which is why Merkel panicked and rushed to meet Putin with Hollande in tow to try and create a deal which would prevent the escalation to a war which would destroy all of Europe for the third time in just over 100 years. I don't think you understand it, just as you don't understand what is really happening in Greece.

'I thought you loved the USA?'

I do, but it doesn't mean I don't understand what goes on and how power is used and what the interests of elites are and how PPEs serve them. I think Germany is being tqught a lesson over Greece. They tried to insist on austerity and no debt restructuring. Now they will get their come-uppance because the US told the IMF to release the document saying that Greece should be offered debt restrutcuring. Germany will pay, in my opinion. The while crisis began when Goldman Sachs advised the Greeks over entry into the Euro. Now we are in the endgame and Germany will lose, in my opinion.

I just hope that whatever the outcome on Sunday, at least a few more people might have watched what's happened and start waking up to what the EU actually stands for and believes in behind all that nice-sounding stuff about human rights: technocratic rule by a self-perpetuating and unaccountable elite, with minimum involvement by electorates, in the interests of finance and multinational businesses.

Exactly right, OTheHugeManatee.

What we are witnessing is disgusting. how Greece nd Greek workers and people are being treated is disgusting. We are seeing the cruel rule of austerity and bankers and an elite class of bureaucrats paid out of the taxation of all European people, including the Greek people.

This is the disdain some of this taxpayer funded class have of people within their own union and elsewhere across the world.

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble has offered to exchange financially-crippled Greece for debt-ridden Puerto Rico in the single-currency eurozone.

Schäuble, a harsh critic of the leftist Athens government, quipped: "I offered my friend (US Treasury secretary) Jack Lew these days that we could take Puerto Rico into the eurozone if the US were willing to take Greece into the dollar union."

In a public address in Frankfurt, the hawkish German minister went on: "He thought that was a joke."

Given the current financial situation of Greece, this may well be the tone of the backdoor negotiations. Nevertheless, the 72-year-old German minister's decision to publicly take a dig at the country has raised eyebrows."

www.ibtimes.co.uk/germanys-wolfgang-schauble-offers-exchange-greece-debt-ridden-puerto-rico-1510187

Now it is Greece, tomorrow it may be another European country.

Yanis, bang on as per:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/10/germany-greek-pain-debt-relief-grexit?CMP=share_btn_tw

Of course Greece needs to sort out corruption. I would put all the previous political class on trial for a start and then stop the cartels, tax the oligarchs, stop the clientelism etc. But I would give ordinary people a break, and give them medicines and their small pensions etc. I'm with the people not the bankers, because i am just one of the people and not a banker myself.

Corruption includes ordinary people. Ordinary people are not paying taxes. They need to start paying taxes. Syrzia needs to stop telling people it can be business as usual, that they can continue not paying taxes and the govt. will hire them for a non job to buy their vote.

Greek pensions are also more generous than German pensions. Why should Greeks, who evade taxes, be subsidised by heavily taxed Germans?

I don't. I am People's Army not Conservative. We are against the bedroom tax, for the scrapping of tuition fees for science, technology and medicine degrees, for a £3 billion injection into the NHS, against TTIP etc

If you're not pro-austerity, why did you make a thread as an ode to how incredible Osborne's austerity budget was?

No because they don't pay, they always find a trick and a PPE to get out of it

Yes, they avoid tax. I think we can and should do something about that. I'm not a fan of the government owning banks as standard (rather than in emergency situations, like the recession) as this would expose us to an unacceptable level of risk in my opinion.

War with Russia of course, which is why Merkel panicked and rushed to meet Putin with Hollande in tow to try and create a deal which would prevent the escalation to a war which would destroy all of Europe for the third time in just over 100 years. I don't think you understand it, just as you don't understand what is really happening in Greece.

Right, I've asked you multiple times what it is that the US is allegedly hanging over Germany to get them to comply. But this is the first time you've mentioned this. I feel that if you really believed it you would have mentioned it the first time I'd asked it.

I also think this is an excellent example of you giving Russia a free pass. You mention Russia & Ukraine a lot in the context of EU & American meddling, but not once do you analyse the motives of the Russian govt. and the Russian elite. Does Russia never meddle? Do you think it's just not that important in the Ukraine conflict?

Why are Greeks voting Oxi brake but Ukrainians toppling their corrupt govt. simply following the US' orders?

I do, but it doesn't mean I don't understand what goes on and how power is used and what the interests of elites are and how PPEs serve them. I think Germany is being tqught a lesson over Greece. They tried to insist on austerity and no debt restructuring. Now they will get their come-uppance because the US told the IMF to release the document saying that Greece should be offered debt restrutcuring. Germany will pay, in my opinion. The while crisis began when Goldman Sachs advised the Greeks over entry into the Euro. Now we are in the endgame and Germany will lose, in my opinion.

Where is the debt restructuring? Tsipras is committing to more austerity! His left wing partners (the really radical ones you like) are furious. Where is this humiliating climbdown?

And, more fundamentally, you always say you don't know who the elite are. So if you don't know who they are, how can you possibly claim to know their motivations? How do you know what they want, if you have no idea who they are?!

Very good article, but if he is right then it means that Germany has a lot more power than I thought. If it does have that much power then like Icarus it will overreach itself and hubris will mean that its power will be curtailed, either by America or by France. Everythng works on balance - on yin and yang.

"Based on months of negotiation, my conviction is that the German finance minister wants Greece to be pushed out of the single currency to put the fear of God into the French and have them accept his model of a disciplinarian eurozone."

A nice, humourous summary - as you love humour so much, claig

i.imgur.com/x0i5qXU.png

Alyosha
You are making this thread worse than an episode of PMQ's. Unnecessary nit-picking attacks on Claig and his viewpoints like some sort of Isitmebut right hand has put me (i am the people we) right off.

Anyway, this (your) political jargon establishment propaganda nonsense does not change my view.

Why is it austerity now when they voted no austerity. They can't be trusted IMHO. They'll take the money and run.

'Why should Greeks, who evade taxes, be subsidised by heavily taxed Germans?'

They shouldn't. The political class and bankers should never have transferred the private risk of French and German banks to German and other European taxpayers.

'as this would expose us to an unacceptable level of risk in my opinion.'

No, if we controlled the banks, we would control the swindlers,we would know what limits they had been given, what their positions were and who authorised them. It would be the end of their casino at the public expense.

'If you're not pro-austerity, why did you make a thread as an ode to how incredible Osborne's austerity budget was?'

Because I was taken in by the headline figures of a rise in the tax threshold to take the low paid out f tax, the rise in the minimum wage and the drop in corporation tax. I didn't understand all the details of the budget at the time I posted. Osborne got me, like he got many others. He played a clever game.

'I feel that if you really believed it you would have mentioned it the first time I'd asked it.'

Why did I say it if I didn't believe it. I think the US and the EU backed a Neo-Nazi coup against an elected Ukraininan President in order to take Ukraine out of Russia's orbit because the President turned down an EU deal and decided to go for the Russian deal of its Economic Area with Belarus etc. The elite did not want that to happen, and so it didn't. That's politics. I have no power to give anyone free passes, I only call it as I see it.

"You mention Russia & Ukraine a lot in the context of EU & American meddling, but not once do you analyse the motives of the Russian govt. and the Russian elite. Does Russia never meddle? Do you think it's just not that important in the Ukraine conflict?"

If you want me to explain what is going on to you, then start a thread for you and I will tell you what it is all about. The Ukraine issue is the biggest split between the US/EU and Russia/China we have seen since the end of the Cold War. It is big news and the repercussions are enormous. That is why Merkel panicked and rushed to meet Putin and took Hllande with her. It is huge. Yes, Russia meddles. Every country meddles to further its interests. But Russia is not that powerful and therefore its potental to meddle is limited.

'Do you think it's just not that important in the Ukraine conflict?'

Of course Russia is important in the Ukraine conflict, because Russia is what the Ukraine conflict is all about.

'Why are Greeks voting Oxi brake but Ukrainians toppling their corrupt govt. simply following the US' orders?'

Don't understand "brake". The Greeks voted "Oxi" in a democratic referendum, the Neo-Nazis toppled an elected President in a coup. Who sponsored and paid for the coup? - the US/EU in order to topple the President who had decied to turn down the EU deal and accept the Russian oe instead because the Russian deal offered more money and subsidised oil and gas and the EU deal opened up Ukrainian to the competition of more efficient European industry which woul lead to the collapse of much of the inefficient Ukrainian factories, stell companies, mines etc.

'Where is the debt restructuring? Tsipras is committing to more austerity! His left wing partners (the really radical ones you like) are furious. Where is this humiliating climbdown? '

I think we will see it on Sunday. the French have been advising the Greeks and helping them write their proposal and it deliberately avoids any mention of teh debt restructuring in order to save Germany's face and therefore the media can report a Greek climbdown. I think we will discover the truth on Sunday when restructuring will be announced. I may be wrong, and if so, like Paddy Ashdown, I will eat a chocolate hat. Spin, spin and more spin. That is what the politcal class is good at.

"So if you don't know who they are, how can you possibly claim to know their motivations? How do you know what they want, if you have no idea who they are?!"

Because I have lived quite a long time and followed world events and learned a thing or two about Blair, PPEs etc etc. I know that Blair is not in charge, that someone pulls his strings and by following events, I can predict what will happen next. That's analysis. I get it wrong, but sometimes I get it right. I disagree with the Deutsche Bank analyst who said Greece would face a humiliating defeat, because I believe there will be debt restructuring. I disagree with analysts who believed there would be a Grexit. I base it on my understanding of the world and the forces that control it.

If you want me to explain what is going on to you, then start a thread for you and I will tell you what it is all about. The Ukraine issue is the biggest split between the US/EU and Russia/China we have seen since the end of the Cold War. It is big news and the repercussions are enormous

I'd be interested to know more about this, but it seems a bit unfair of us to try and lock you into an endless 'AMA' session Claig