Greece part II

[Hullygully]

I would be very grateful if we could keep this about Greece, and those (two) who want to dance up and down jibing at Claig and calling her a fool and a kremlinbot and an anti-semite, start their own thread for that purpose.

Cheers

'you were applauding George Osborne's benefit cutting budget'

Yes, but not because of scroungers. But that is off topic.

'What sources would you accept as showing Greeks don't pay much tax?'

The RMT News.

I am sure that the bankers, the oligarchs, the political class, the corporations and the bureaucrats don't pay tax, but if the people of Greece didn't pay tax then they would not have been able to run a health service (which the bankers are in the process of destroying), run ports and airports and air traffic control systems (which the bankers are plundering as they demand their privatisation) and would not have been able to pay higher pensions than UK pensioners and retire earlier than UK citizens.

"State pensions are one of the biggest expenses for the British government. However, new figures from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation & Development (OECD) show that the UK spends less on pensions than most other developed countries."

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11291209/Greece-spends-more-on-pensions-than-UK.html

I know when I am being lied to and I know the bankers are behind it.

For Greece, Syriza and Tsipras to remain in the Euro, there will be a massive climb down from the Sunday Referendums ‘victory laps’, with MORE austerity and ANY prospect of Greek debt restructuring e.g. lengthening the maturity date, to be discussed at a future date.

Once (as I’ve said all along) Greece looks to be ‘playing the Eurozone creditor game’ by attempting to service existing debt, never mind the economic ability to service any additional loans.

One has to wonder why this ‘Greek Tragedy’ has had to play out over the last several months as Greece’s ‘keftedes’ were in a debt vice for every minute of that time, as the voters/citizens/parliaments of the other 18 Eurozone members - still in an economic slump with a collective Eurozone 0.9% GDP in 2014 and over 11% unemployment VERSUS 3.0% GDP and 5.6% unemployment here – were never going to give in without concessions.

”Greece submits new plan as two sides edge closer to deal”

”Greek prime minister looks to have capitulated on key measures. Here's a breakdown of the proposals Athens has submitted in its final bid for a deal”
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11730460/Greece-submits-new-plan-as-two-sides-edge-closer-to-deal.html

”The proposals appear to go further than the austerity demands rejected by the Greeks in last Sunday's referendum. Quick calculations show they amount to around €13bn in fiscal measures in return for what could be a three-year loan worth €50bn-70bn.”

(See the list of proposals within the link)

Where's the debt relief?

”There are no mentions of Greece's debt sustainability in the "prior actions" report laid out above. However, a government "non-paper" sent to parliamentarians makes mention of a commitment to reprofile Greece's debt after 2022.”

”That is the year Greece is set to pay back deferred loans from Europe's rescue funds. This starts with a €5bn repayment in December 2022.”

”It has been thought that the only way Mr Tsipras will be able to convince his electorate - who voted to rejected austerity terms very similar to this plan by 61pc - should he manage to get an explicit promise that some portion of Greece's €330bn will be reprofiled or restructured.”

What happens next?

”If it all goes to plan, then the Greek parliament will vote through the measures tonight. Mr Tsipras will likely be relying on his opposition parties to give their assent.”

”Then, finance ministers will unanimously have to give their assent to the Greek proposals on Saturday. This may then lead to the cancellation of an emergency leaders summit set for Sunday.”

”On Monday, all eyes would turn to the national parliaments of the eurozone. Germany, Portugal, Slovakia, Estonia, and Finland will all have to pass the loan request through their legislatures with a majority vote.”

”If all these hurdles are cross, Greece may then secure the release of around €3.3bn in bond profits it is owed by the ECB. This cash would help Greece pay off a maturing bond to the ECB on July 20.”

*The RMT News.

I am sure that the bankers, the oligarchs, the political class, the corporations and the bureaucrats don't pay tax, but if the people of Greece didn't pay tax then they would not have been able to run a health service (which the bankers are in the process of destroying), run ports and airports and air traffic control systems (which the bankers are plundering as they demand their privatisation) and would not have been able to pay higher pensions than UK pensioners and retire earlier than UK citizens.*

Now claig, we see the root of the problem. Greece didn't raise enough taxes to pay for their welfare state, that's why that had to rely on reckless borrowing. When they could no longer borrow, they could no longer afford to pay for pensions, ports, airports and ATC without Eurozone bailout funds.

I know when I am being lied to and I know the bankers are behind it.

I think you're trying to wind me up now with this kind of language.

As you don't know who the elite are, how do you know that a) they exist and b) what they want?

Because I don't think what's happening in Greece will benefit the Greek elite at all.

"Yes, but not because of scroungers. But that is off topic."

So is you calling me stupid. But I'm interested - George Osborne causes untold pain to the poorest in this country and you love it? But you oppose austerity?

Bizarre.

'Now claig, we see the root of the problem. Greece didn't raise enough taxes to pay for their welfare state'

No, they had been running a welfare system for years. The corrupt political class was offereed cheap loans by corrupt German and French bankers in order to buy German submarines that didn't work and bail out and boost growth in the stagnating German and French economies. They colluded in falsifying figures to enter the Euro in order to be able to maintain the cheap flow of cash to the corrupt elite who pocketed some of it in Swiss banks and paid the rest back to German and French companies in contracts. Then the EU puppet politicians transferred the debt from he corrupt private banks to the Greek people and tried to stiff them for it in an "austerity laboratory" while the media portrayed the people as lazy tax-fiddling scroungers and while the bankers and the elites laughed.

then when Europe's only radical left wing party called their bluff and called a demratic referendum, the bankers and the EU elites panicked and agreed to offer some form of debt relief.

That us why Charles Moore, former Daily Telegraph editor and Thatcher biographer, wrote

"5 July will be one of those great moments in socialist history, celebrated in song and story, and used to inspire future generations."

Off for a slap-up lunch at the Dog and Duck in my usual seat under the life-size photo of Farage. Back later.

No, they had been running a welfare system for years. The corrupt political class was offereed cheap loans by corrupt German and French bankers in order to buy German submarines that didn't work and bail out and boost growth in the stagnating German and French economies. They colluded in falsifying figures to enter the Euro in order to be able to maintain the cheap flow of cash to the corrupt elite who pocketed some of it in Swiss banks and paid the rest back to German and French companies in contracts. Then the EU puppet politicians transferred the debt from he corrupt private banks to the Greek people and tried to stiff them for it in an "austerity laboratory" while the media portrayed the people as lazy tax-fiddling scroungers and while the bankers and the elites laughed.

But it wasn't as generous as it is now. So they could afford it (well kind of). Access to EU loans allowed them to secure their voter bases through handing out generous benefits to pensioners and allowing selected worker groups to retire at the age of 50, including hairdressers, for example.

Greece had to want the cash in the first place in order to borrow it - and much of it was lent by Europe to improve Greece's infrastructure, but was instead diverted into the banks of corrupt politicians - on that we agree. They also knew there was a problem but deliberately concealed it. Due diligence should have been done more diligently - but the I am sure you would be accusing us of unfairly suspecting Greece of malfeasance.

But the Greeks really are tax fiddling, all the evidence from everyone including Greece points to this, and the fact you can't admit it shows your desire to fit the facts to your narrative rather than base your narrative around the facts.

Claig .... re your "then when Europe's only radical left wing party called their bluff and called a demratic referendum, the bankers and the EU elites panicked and agreed to offer some form of debt relief."

Where is the EU Greek debt relief, to a left wing Syriza movement likely to be split on a vote tonight - and likely need the opposition parties to vote Tsipras's climbdown deal through thought tighter than the previous one - so hardly a victory.

The Greeks were sold an expensive debt pup by left wing Greek politicians, who have FAILED and let them down, so no matter what ANYONE wrote BEFORE this climbdown, Syriza has (sadly for the people) FAILED.

The elite has to try and smear ordinary people for the sake of divide and rule in order to get the turkeys to vote for Christmas and support the bankers
agree with this!

What's to stop this. Greece accepts extra money and then put the austerity stuff to the people and they vote against it. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. I'd not trust them an inch to do what they say they'll do. Because if that was the intention in the first place what was the point of all this.

Ordinary people aren't gods. They are perfectly capable of mass tax avoidance and evasion.

Greeks voted against austerity, but that's not in their gift. It's in the gift of those giving them money.

We can vote for or against austerity because we as a country are not reliant on bailouts.

Viviennemary - then Greece won't get the rest of the money it needs. They'll need more money down the line.

'I'd not trust them an inch to do what they say they'll do.'

Absolutely right, Vivienne. which is why this is a victory for Syriza and a defeat for the bankers despite the spin we are being sold by the media that the bankers won. The Greeks will get some form of debt relief, that the media will prtened is a victory for the bankers, and yet everybody apart from a PPE knows that the Greek commitments may blow away in the wind.

"Merkel ally says hard to trust latest Greek reform proposals

A senior member of German Chancellor Angela Merkel's party said on Friday he had trouble trusting Greece's latest proposals to its euro zone creditors as the country had last week decisively rejected the austerity measures in a referendum."

uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/10/uk-eurozone-greece-fuchs-idUKKCN0PK0L620150710

The bankers have paid for the best spinners they can find to promote the message that they beat Syriza, but it is a bit like when Gordon Bennett's best spinners said that he had "ended boom and bust", nobody but a PPE believed it.

'It's in the gift of those giving them money.'

You are forgetting the United States.

'then Greece won't get the rest of the money it needs. They'll need more money down the line.'

The more money they are given now and they reportedly want an extra 50 billion dollars and some debt restructuring, the more money the bankers stand to lose if Greece defaults. The EU already stand to lose over 100 billion Euros, that is why they are making a deal and getting their spinners to tell the European taxpayer that they won.

'Because if that was the intention in the first place what was the point of all this.'

The point was to get a better deal than they were offered, with debt retructuring, and everybody from the United States, France, Italy, the IMF, most of the left wing economic professors on the planet and the President of the European Commission, Donald Tusk, now agrees that that is needed.

Why is it in the gift of the USA? Are they sending money to the European central bank? Great if they were.

Err, surely the more money Greece is given now, the more money they'll have to pay off their debts? Surely "the bankers" want Greece to get a bailout with no strings attached so they'll get paid? Isn't this what we've been arguing about?

'Why is it in the gift of the USA? Are they sending money to the European central bank?'

Gordon Bennett. Don't you understand power and politics? One phone call from Obama is all it takes. America doesn't send money, it sends instructions. Haven't you read Machiavelli?

Here is Blair's former Chief of Staff, Jonathan Powell, PPE, and his new book you might like to read

"The New Machiavelli: How to Wield Power in the Modern World"

I haven't read it, I am studying Farage "The Purple Revolution", which you might like to study too.

This is no longer really about the economics but the politics.

Economically everyone agrees that the Greek debts need to be restructured. The problem is trust.

Right now the other EU countries and most importantly Germany don't trust the Greek's will do as they will say. They're still borrowing a shit load of money whilst at the same time only capitulating on terms when they're up the creek with no paddle & banks with no money. Even then they're saying "Yeah ok but we want you to promise you'll write off some of our debts"

It's simply the wrong way to foster trust with those you want to borrow money from. No-one wants to lend someone money when they're refusing to make big changes to their spending that you think they need, whilst at the same time demanding the money AND that you forgive some of their previous debts.

That's called wanting to have your cake and eat it. It's also a dangerous precedent to set for the other countries that did take the medicine they needed and are better for it now.

The lefties like to bundle this up as a conspiracy from the elite & corrupt bankers. In reality it's a bunch of incompetent politician's who got elected selling promises they cannot possibly keep. A bit like their previous politicians who promised to spend money they couldn't pay back!

So the question really is who really thinks Greece is good for the loans they're asking for and can pay it back? And if they can't pay back their loans, why loan them money in the first place?

'Surely "the bankers" want Greece to get a bailout with no strings attached so they'll get paid?'

No, you don't understand the game at all. The bankers want "austerity", an "austerity laboratory" and a neoliberal policy of smashing workers' right and pensions and wages followed by a plundering of all national assets under a forced privatisation programme at bargain basement prices. The bankers want to loot the country, which is why the people voted for Syriza to try and stop it. I thought you were a socialist.

why loan them money in the first place
to enslave them of course

'That's called wanting to have your cake and eat it. It's also a dangerous precedent to set for the other countries that did take the medicine they needed and are better for it now.'

And that is what the Greeks are going to get and it will spread to all real left wing parties such as Podemos in Spain.

'And if they can't pay back their loans, why loan them money in the first place?'

Because the alternative is political contagion, a right wing populiist electoral surge and a real left wing electoral surge all over Europe with the EU poliitical class swept out of power followed by financial contagion, an end to the Eurozone followed by an end to the entire European project. I don't think Obama wants that, so it won't happen.

And what suzannecanthecan said

"why loan them money in the first place
to enslave them of course"

This is no longer really about the economics but the politics

surely the two are inextricably intertwined
and really it's about power and control

you're wrong niceguy. It is about politics, but it's about neo-liberal politics not working and a party being elected to try and stop those failing imposed policies. Everyone has given up pretending austerity works (except Merkel so far and possibly Latvia and Slovakia who have yet to realise no one gives a shit what they think sadly because they have no power).

There are different, but intersecting aims. The bankers want nationalism so they can make money. The The EU governments want to think that their jobs actually mean something. The USA wants everyone to just fucking sort it and keep Greece on side for geopolitical reasons. It doesn't give a fuck who owes whom what.

Oh and large corporations want everybody's everything please.

Obama's been on the phone a lot: Greece isn't getting what it wants.

No, you don't understand the game at all. The bankers want "austerity", an "austerity laboratory" and a neoliberal policy of smashing workers' right and pensions and wages followed by a plundering of all national assets under a forced privatisation programme at bargain basement prices. The bankers want to loot the country, which is why the people voted for Syriza to try and stop it. I thought you were a socialist.

I thought you liked Thatcher who did all of the above?

I am a socialist.

to enslave them of course

Why do the "bankers" want to enslave Greeks? What are they going to do with these enslaved peoples?