The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

Claig... re your "If only life were that simple. The citizens don't count. Parliament will be told to vote as suits the interest of the elite - which will be for Germany to cave in."

Do you seriously NOT understand the difference between the PRE financial/economic crash EU political/citizen environment and the POST crash environment - when DOMESTICALLY every member's citizens have since suffered from excessive debt/austerity - limiting EU governments ability to run over the rights of their citizens???

When did UKIP, the France's Front National and other European far left/right parties gain traction if not AFTER the financial/economic crashes???

suzannecanthecan, it is a joke.

Remember the "dodgy dossier" presented to our Parliament which nearly all of our MPs believed and voted for about Saddam's weapons of mass destruction which led to us going to war in Iraq?

I think there will be an "economic dossier" and I think it will have projections and predictions plucked from thin air and the back of fag packet outlining carnage on the markets and for finance and all of our MPs will believe it just as they believed in the "dodgy dossier". They will then cast their votes as required.

Claig ... forget the 'Wolfie' Tooting National Front mantras... why will the EU project crumble when their weakest member is ejected, the Euro strengthens and other States realise no more soft options, they need to reform e.g. the ECBs instructions to keep budget deficits down and reform over tight labour markets?

Thank you, chibi.

I believe the system works for the interests of an elite and not for us the people.

On that we are totally in agreement, claig

"Do you seriously NOT understand the difference between the PRE financial/economic crash EU political/citizen environment and the POST crash environment - when DOMESTICALLY every member's citizens have since suffered from excessive debt/austerity - limiting EU governments ability to run over the rights of their citizens???"

Do you not realise that in an age of austerity when services are being cut, wages have not been increased much in the public sector and businesses failed, that the Conservatives decided to ring-fence foreign aid spending which is billions per year? What do you think the citizens would say about that if asked?

Humankind cannot bear very much reality

People want to believe their votes mean something.

On a slightly tangential yet not irrelevant note, I always think it interesting, this idea that the past is another country. When Diana died and there were many many rumours of murder/assassination, all pooh-pooed as conspiracy, and then one pointed out, mildly, that such murders were hardly unheard of amongst the ruling class, the princes in the tower etc etc etc, the cries of horror and outrage and but that was then.

Nothing changes, contingency and convenience for the powerful still rule the day.

claig.... THERE is one of your classic deflections; please answer my earlier questions re Eurozone citizens, post crashes, DO the EU "elites" have the same non democratic ability to do what they like - as this is KEY to your argument that Greece Tsipras is in the driving seat? Yes or no?

'why will the EU project crumble when their weakest member is ejected, the Euro strengthens and other States realise no more soft options, they need to reform e.g. the ECBs instructions to keep budget deficits down and reform over tight labour markets?'

You are chanting the austerity song, you are following Germany's lead. Don't you understand that America has said enough is enough. France and Italy are panicking, they understand that this could be the end of the entire EU project.

There aren't EU elites, there is an overarching elite within the eu, and even they are in reality supranational.

Nationalism is a sideshow.

Isitmebut, I don't understand your last question. Can you make it clearer?

claig .... prior to the financial/economic crashes that affected all western citizens (some more than most), the leaders of the member countries, aided by the bureaucrats in Brussels, did what THEY wanted to do to take the EU project forward.

Since the crashes, the citizens of all member States are finding that THEIR voices AGAINST the EU project are best transmitted by far left/right parties at home, so to a large extent within the UK, France, Germany, Italy etc etc etc the mainstream governments have had to LISTEN or be thrown out of office - especially if it might mean coalitions with these far left/right anti EU parties.

So beit the UK Labour 'diversity' immigration policies from 2000, Germany's open chequebook, or a France YET to take their pain as their budget deficit rises - the options of member government in 2015 to do what THEY want, are far different to a decade ago.

And THAT is what you and Greece have not taken account of in the Greek Referendum 'NO' 'victory laps', in the assumption that other Eurozone members can put Greek taxpayers/voters, ahead of their own.

Yes, that is true. as the world changes, so do the policies of governments and so do the strategies of the elites.

As we as ordinary people vote for balance, against extreme austerity or against unelected bureaucrats and for freedom, then the political class and the elites have to adapt. That goes on all the time.

But what is happening now is different. The EU political class refused to do a fair deal with Greece and they were intransigent and they wanted to overthrow the only real radical left wing government in Europe to teach them a lesson. The bankers thought it would be easy. But Tsipras and Syriza called their bluff and asked the Greek people in a referendum, real democracy which the bankers hate, and the Greek people supported them. Now the world watches on to see what the bankers and the EU political class will do because they say they believe in democracy and they say they listen to the citizens.

I think they are still bluffing now, thinking that Tsipras will blink. But I think Germany has been outplayed because they didn't realise that Tsipras is backed by someone more powerful than them.

I think the world will see the EU political class and Germany be forced to blink. there is nothing the people of Europe can do to stop that. If it leads to the fall of certain politicians in the EU political class, so what? They lose their jobs, their faces are no longer on TV, no one asks them their opinion anymore and they are history - just like the LibDems. The world moves on, who cares?

I have said I don't know because I have never met them.

So on earth do you know what they want? Who do you think they might be? How have you got to your opinions on what they want?

Their interests are not contrary. They adapt and change over time as the situation in the world changes over time. Now they are teaching the EU politcal class a lesson. Your analysis is what big deal is it if Greece is forced to Grexit and tha the political class don't look worried- but they are in panic mode because that would be the biggest crisis in EU history and would spread further and topple lots of European political parties and change the face of the whole of Europe.

How are they teaching the EU political class a lesson?

Do you mean because it is no big deal if Greece leaves the Euro?

It's a big deal, but it won't mean the end of Europe. Nor will it mean the end of the EU political class.

Instead of trying to keep up with why I prefer Corbyn to Tory lite Kendall why can't you give insight into the Greek crisis, you having worked in Donetsk and all?

It's symptomatic of the fact you change your opinion every 2 seconds and play all angles to derail discussions. You are the person who brought up Corbyn & Kendall in the first place!

That seems to be your only theory, nothing on the Greek crisis. I am just amused that anyone would employ in Donetsk someone who can't understand Kendall vs Corbyn. I'm just interested. Have you name-changed?

I have talked a lot about the Greek crisis, actually. And you've brought up the other interested parties (Russia, China) - I think it's fair to talk about what those interested parties might want.

Who do you think I am now? Intrigued!

I haven't criticised Botswana, do I work for them too? This is about the EU, not Ukraine, Donetsk and Russia, although you keep trying to bring it back to that. If you are interested in that, start a thread on it.

I've never heard you talk about Botswana. If you read back through the thread you will that other posters start to talk about Ukraine, and you then stick your oar in. I was replying to that.

Yes I see that that is your only argument and I have said it is not true and I have asked to have your smears deleted.

You don't think you're using coded anti-semitic language? I do. You may well not actually be anti-semitic, but that doesn't change the fact that you are using anti-semitic dog whistling language.

9/10 when I talk to conspiracy theorists about a global world elite, the coded language becomes not so coded after a while.

They even got rid of Thatcher. they said her time was up. Like Caesar before her, she said "Et tu Brute?" as they stabbed her in the back.

Nothing is permanent, there is always change. What we the people hope is that it is change for the better that is what the people of Greece voted for in the referendum. That is what Syriza said they would deliver for them. They took on the bankers and humiliated them. People across Europe are cheering them on. In the European Parliament, left wingers and right wingers shook Tsipras's hand and the Establishment and the bankers booed.

It seems that Tsipras has the mighty USA on his side to some extent. Let's hope so and let's hope together, they each the austerity maniacs and bankers a lesson.

claig .... what you THINK is immaterial to the real world, the Eurozone/EU individual government members HAVE to have both their EU and domestic hats on, for their own survival and input into the 'project' - Greece will be seen as a sad, expensive, member loss due to Greece's democratic vote - and politicians who think that THEY are irreplaceable, will utter theses words, heard after every feck up "we have to learn our lessons going forward".

'what you THINK is immaterial to the real world'

You may be right. Sunday will tell.

This is what the experts say

"George Saravelos at Deutsche Bank thinks Athens will have to bow down and accept much harsher bail-out conditions than those they have previously had rejected by creditors."

I think it will be different. Then I will have egg on my face. It won't be the first time.

'fool'

Can we please keep the discussion civil? We already have Aloysha spoiling the thread with smears and insults. There is no need to add to them. I disagree with you, but I am not a fool.

Claig .... of course we can keep it civil, if you stop insisting filling up page after page with your head-up-bum mantras that WIND people up, as factually proven incorrect and others have taken the time to show you why - which you IGNORE at the time as not convenient to YOUR argument - only to be repeated on the NEXT page, the one after that and ...etc etc etc.

As a Kremlinbot, you have your daily allocation of posts to make, can you spread the SAME mantras over several boards please?

I am not a Kremlinbot and you know it. I think you are quite funny and humorous, although politically naive, but I think you have overdone that joke.

I'm hurt claig, I thought it was two way? You did call me stupid, after all.

Will you claim victory if Greece stays in the Eurozone with full debt relief?

I think if Greece stays in the EU it will be with very minimal debt relief and cuts to pensions, public sector jobs and (hopefully) an attack on the "clientist" interests in Greece. Let's hope they do stay in as the short term shock of leaving would be so painful, although perhaps better for Greece long term, if they can reform their political system without the EU breathing down their neck (unlikely).

P.S. claig, re your past predictions e.g. UKIP parliamentary seats, end of the Conservative Party - Humpty Dumpty has LESS egg on his face than you. lol

Claig I thinkyou might be a Kremlinbot because although you criticise every country in the Eurozone & talk about Russia a lot you never, ever criticise Russia or Putin or rail about the Russian elites. Also you buy Russian propaganda on all topics, hook, line & sinker.

So that's why I think you could be a Kremlinbot - you advance the Kremlin line on most topics.