The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

'Why are you so threatened by claig?'

I think she may have name-changed. Donetsk is the clue.

claig ..... why do you just regurgitate 'stuff' said pages ago (challenged/ disproved at length) when it is so clear the reality is Tsipras's goolies are in a vice and at the mercy of the other 18 democracies within the Eurozone?

The U.S. is NOT involved, it is a European problem/bill that has nothing to do with them, other than in the past, they led by example when mainly South American debtor on their doorstep got into trouble.

Brady bonds are dollar-denominated bonds, issued mostly by Latin American countries in the late 1980s. The bonds were named after U.S. Treasury Secretary Nicholas Brady, who proposed a novel debt-reduction agreement for developing countries.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Bonds

"Countries that participated in the initial round of Brady bond issuance were Argentina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Mexico, Morocco, Nigeria, Philippines, Poland, Uruguay and Venezuela."

The U.S. can say that they led by example in the past, but clearly the Eurozone members led by Germany are not offering 'restructuring of debt, as still see it as 'throwing good money after bad'.

P.S. It is about now your (and others) anti American Kremlin instructions kicks BACK in to criticise previously effective U.S. international work done, having just used tried to use America as a 'force for good' within your anti EU Greek argument.

No doubt more claig 'bit of wee, bit of woo', 'ducking and diving', 'bobbing and weaving' opinions on the way.

A view from the New York Times. it is spot on and is what this is really about.

"Germany's Failure of Vision

THE Greek crisis represents the first real test of German leadership since World War II. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany has thus far flunked it, with tragic consequences for Europe.
...
Even a decade in, her inexperience shows. For starters, she has treated the debt crisis narrowly, as an economic problem, failing to consider Greece’s role in defending Eastern Europe against a resurgent Russia. This failure is remarkable, since it was only last February that she went to Minsk, Belarus, to negotiate with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia on a Ukraine cease-fire. America was largely on the sidelines, astonishing for a matter of war and peace on the Continent.

It is hardly surprising that President Obama called on Ms. Merkel to show flexibility in the debt crisis, given Greece’s critical geostrategic role in NATO. The issue goes far beyond the leftist Syriza party’s flirtation with Mr. Putin as a counterweight to European technocrats in Brussels, Strasbourg and Frankfurt. It is in Germany’s paramount interest to keep the eastern frontier of Europe as far east as possible. The United States is already overextended in the Middle East and in East Asia. If Germany is to deter Russia effectively, it must gain the continuing cooperation of Greece and other NATO allies, like the Baltic countries, that because of proximity are potentially in the line of fire. But instead of heeding Mr. Obama, Ms. Merkel chose the path of humiliation."

www.nytimes.com/2015/07/09/opinion/germanys-failure-of-vision.html?_r=0

America is fed up of sorting Europe out. It expects Germany to do it and have the vision to do it, not focus on finance, but understand the political game that is going to unfold. Germany is being humiliated and taught a lesson so that it starts stepping up to the plate and starts playing the game the way the US likes.

'when it is so clear the reality is Tsipras's goolies are in a vice and at the mercy of the other 18 democracies within the Eurozone?'

I have explained why that is not the case and why the 18 + Germany are still bluffing as we go the wire.

'The U.S. is NOT involved, it is a European problem/bill that has nothing to do with them'

Gordon Bennett. The US has delegated Europe to Germany. It is always involved. It doesn't go to sleep and allow Greece to fall out of its orbit because of Germany's lack of vision, excessive focus on finance and austerity. It has had enough and Germany will blink.

I'm sorry i couldn't understand the last two paragraphs. I have reread them but it just seems like a garbled mush. I'm used to deciphering your rambling thoughts, so I can usually see what you are trying to get at, but this one has me stumped.

Sadly Germany isn't well known for learning lessons...

claig ... Germany's guarantees exposure to the whole EU project is in the Euro trillions, Greece is putting the whole project as risk and a Grexit would strengthen the Euro...so tell me WHAT do you disagree with the following link I posted days ago...bearing in mind GERMAN TAXPAYERS/VOTERS and well as those in other countries, DO NOT WANT TO KEEP BAILING OUT GREECE????

"Why Germany won't back down on Greece: Ex-Fed's Fisher"
www.cnbc.com/id/102811175

"German Chancellor Angela Merkel will take pains to appear she is extending an olive branch to Greece, but she has little room to negotiate after Greeks voted "no" on economic austerity, former Dallas Federal Reserve President Richard Fisher said Monday."

"Ultimately, people report to their own people, and [Merkel] has to be supported by the German parliament and the German people," Fisher told CNBC's "Squawk Box." "There is a limit of tolerance, and she knows what that limit is."

"The country's (Greek) bank are set to run out of money this week, so the ECB may set up some sort of bridge financing, but it must do so in a way that eases pain while maintaining the creditors' negotiating position, Fisher said."

"Rules and discipline are very much part of the German mentality, and the Greeks violated rules and discipline, Fisher said. If Greece leaves the euro zone, the euro currency should increase in value, he said."

"You take one of the weights on the economic progress of the system, even though it's a tiny weight, out of the system. Once you get through the disruption and the liquidity squeeze and whatever short-term market disruptions there may be, economically speaking, it should be a stronger currency by virtue of taking a weak member out."

Hullygully...re your "Sadly Germany isn't well known for learning lessons..."

Are you STILL going on about the two last WW's, as if THAT isn't "swivel eyed' ignorance expecting the people of Germany to keep footing bills for policies of their governments/Nazis nearly 100-years ago, I don't know what is.

You gotta move on.

P.S. Should the French stump up because of Napoleon, how far do you want to go back???

P.S.S. The Roman's, how bad were they, "what did they ever do for us"?

claig ... specifically, do you think Merkel will be "supported by the German people and the German parliament"??

Are you aware of ANY of the 18-other Eurozone member governments parliament and people that want to stump up?

Sunday is the whole EU 'biggie', so what is it, 28 nations might have to agree to s-p-r-e-a-d the Greek cost of cut them off, how do you think OUR parliament would vote?

As you are so pro UKIP/Farage and in the past so anti EU costs to the UK, what do you think Farage will be saying, 'YES' lets do it?

Wars? Eh?

In answer to isitme?yep,sureis I posted on Tuesday:-

Greece borrowed money from private banks who included Goldman Sachs, Deutsche Bank, BNP Paribas, Cretit Agricole and others. These debts were then repayed by the ECB and IMF on the insistence of former ECB chair Jean Claude Trichet. That is not Greece's fault, it's Trichet's.

The banks already have their money due to a former banker protecting their risk and transferring it to the public sector.

Max has a show on RT, which is as much a propaganda tool for Putin as the BBC is for the Tory party. Max started his broadcasting career on the BBC, so I don't get your point.

Greece isn't asking for a bailout, it's asking for a liquidity injection and a reduction in the repayment. The ECB, in rejecting this, is breaking its own rules.

Correction .. the 3rd line above should read "...the Greek cost OR cut them off..."

'Ultimately, people report to their own people, and [Merkel] has to be supported by the German parliament and the German people," Fisher told CNBC's "Squawk Box'

I don't believe that. Did Blair report to the British people when he took us to war with Iraq?

"Rules and discipline are very much part of the German mentality, and the Greeks violated rules and discipline, Fisher said. If Greece leaves the euro zone, the euro currency should increase in value, he said."

Yes, Germany are inflexible as we have seen. I think America has had enough of it and with the IMF wants Germany to be flexible and offer debt relief to the Greeks. The US bailed out their savings and loans companies and expects Germany to bail out its own banks rather than being intransigent with Greece.

'If Greece leaves the euro zone, the euro currency should increase in value, he said."'

Possible but unlikely. The game will then move to Italy, Spain and Portugal. The political consequences for Europe; Farage triumphant etc will be earth-shattering. However, this is an option because then the EU mandarins will try to achieve their aim of faster, deeper union and an end to national sovereignty in order to strengthen a collapsing union. But there is one factor they underestimate - the people. A Greek exit and eventual recovery will embolden Podemos, Farage, the People's Army, Le Pen, Jeremy Corbyn and all real left wingers to say a different future is possible and they will not easily be corralled into a tighter union run by unelected bureaucrats and will not accept the loss of sovereignty and perpetual austerty involved. The EU may try this option but that is very high stakes poker and Farage is a saloon bar champion bar none. He lives in bars, he drinks like a fish and smokes like a chimney. Juncker does too, but does Merkel?

"Once you get through the disruption and the liquidity squeeze and whatever short-term market disruptions there may be, economically speaking, it should be a stronger currency by virtue of taking a weak member out."

This focuses on finance and the world runs on politics, not finance. It ignores the catastrophic political consequences for the political class and above all it ignores the interests of the United States in my opinion. It won't happen because it doesn't suit America, in my opinion.

However, I may be wrong and maybe the elite prefer that option. We will see on Sunday.

DoctorTwo's.... more money and debt forgiveness is NOT a bailout?

And your post above states "Greece borrowed"...end of story, as back then it would not have been 'Greece was FORCED to take'.

There is a REASON why citizens are not able to litigate against elected politicians; it is because they make dumb-shit decisions

In socialism, it is never the governments fault is it, always someone elses, the banks, the Conservatives, 'bloody Thatcher'. Pathetic.

'claig ... specifically, do you think Merkel will be "supported by the German people and the German parliament"??'

I don't think America cares. You have to get past thinking that politicians are in charge, they are temporary holders of office. Once they go, another one replaces them and the game goes on.

"Sunday is the whole EU 'biggie', so what is it, 28 nations might have to agree to s-p-r-e-a-d the Greek cost of cut them off, how do you think OUR parliament would vote?"

The whips will tell them to vote as they are told. There will be an economic "dossier" that will explain to them the consequences, they will read it and their hair will turn white, they will ask for a top up of the best Whiskey in the House, subsidised by the taxpayer, and the whips will guide them to their voting positions.

"what do you think Farage will be saying, 'YES' lets do it?"

Farage is with the Greeks. He has said "Oxi". He wants to see the end of the EU, but Greece and America don't, I think, and so that is not going to happen.

claig ... sorry, my eyes blurred over with BS, a straight yes or no re the German parliament and citizens, please.

Isit, what do you think will happen on Sunday?

'straight yes or no re the German parliament and citizens'

If only life were that simple. The citizens don't count. Parliament will be told to vote as suits the interest of the elite - which will be for Germany to cave in.

'claig ... sorry, my eyes blurred over with BS'

You shouldn't read you own posts back, that is the effect they produce.

claig .... for Germany and others the RISKS are twofold; the whole project going south (or shrinking back to the original member states) if Greece IS bailed out and others want similar, and their domestic political situation.

Relative to those huge risks, what are their upsides to continually supporting Greece?

Greece on the other hand, come next Monday, could see a whole world of hurt, but will still have the Marxist Brothers heroes, to ease the economic pain for the next two years.

In defence of claig, she is entirely consistent

There is an elite in the UK who orchestrate all politics and economy to serve their interests

There are politicians who serve them, and who are themselves largely interchangeable. They are all drawn from students who studied at Eton, Oxbridge, and who hold PPEs

I don't know whether any of that is true (nor do I care, knowing one way or another wouldn't make an iota of difference) but it is certainly plausible, similar structures have existed in other places, at other times.

I also don't think she uses antisemitic code words- the PPE holders etc are the likes of Nick clegg, David Cameron, boris Johnson, George Osborne etc

There will be an economic "dossier" that will explain to them the consequences, they will read it and their hair will turn white

Claig?, Is it possible for you to expand on that please?
It sounds alarming, what are the consequences which will turn their hair white??

'Relative to those huge risks, what are their upsides to continually supporting Greece?'

They keep the EU show on the road which is what France, Italy and the US want. They have no alternative. Their dream is crumbling before their eyes, they are ordering sticking plasters like billio, Tsipras called their bluff and their house of cards is crumbling. A PPE will presnt the next Greek plan today. They will do what they can to hold it together. Germany will blink, will pay and offer debt relief just as the US and the IMF want.