The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

I think claig is consistent, but because she isn't neatly boxed into one of the political categories you can understand, your desires for neat categories are going haywire.

So Hully, you see no contradiction in a love of Thatcher & Jeremy Corbyn?

'I'm sure that the US has virtues that the UK doesn't (and vice-versa) but is it not as much a corporatocracy, does the US banking system not ?predate upon the 'regular' economy?'

suzanne, the US locks up its bankers who cheated investors, it goes after corruption, it has free speech enshrined in its constitution, it has a real Freedom of Information Act, it would never let the people of Louisiana suffer like Europe has let the people of Greece suffer - the equivalent of what the US suffered in the Great Depression. Yes, there are some forces who are so powerful that they may escape justice in America, but far fewer than can get away with it in Europe, in the cosy club system of elites which Thatcher wanted to bust up.

'Surely any elite group will be corrupt because power concentrated in the hands of a few people inevitably leads to corruption?'

You are right and that is why we need Freedom of Information, a free press (Daily Mail) without socialist government supervision and regulation and free speech so that we can hold the corrupt to account. America has more of that freedom, corruption is uncovered sooner there. But it is not perfect, it is a process, the process of freedom without EU dictats and ultimatums and threats and Brussels bullyng, which is why all freedom loving people - left wing and Farage and the People's Army - have cheered the Greek people on in their victory against the bankers, the bullies, the elites and the unelected servants who brought misery to Greece.

'If anything Claig you seem to have too much faith in the potential of humans to act in ways which are benevolent ?'

Not at all. I challenge the political class of PPEs who call themselves "philanthropists" and say they support "charidees" while carrying out wars and enriching themselves. But I am an optmist, I believe we will win, I believe the people will win and the bankers will one day lose and we will get a better, fairer society based on freedom. And it will be America, with its Statue of Liberty and flame of freedom who helps us, not the EU that we see today telling the Greek people what to do.

Isitmebut - how sticky do we think Syrzia's political position will be after Grexit?

Will the Oxi supporters blame Syrzia or EU for crashing out? Will be interesting to see.

And claig is a native English speaker, so must be hard up. Hope things get better soon - I'm sure you can turn your literary talents to more than astroturfing Kremlin talking points.

You can also hear the "cri de coeur" in some of claig's posts. The saloon bar in the dog & duck. the little hints she's a troll.

i hear you! escape while you still can!

Alyosha, as I recall (and I haven't checked caveat), claig said she liked some of what Thatcher did, chiefly not entering the eurozone.

Corbyn because he is an independent and a proper socialist.

What's wrong with that?

I don't agree with lots of claig's things, but I do think she has interesting ideas and a fairly consistent viewpoint.

'But I thought you liked undermining business & capitalism - that's Corbyn's position, isn't it?'

You thought wrong. I voted for the People's Army, for common sense. But I believe in balance and I want to hear Jeremy Corbyn because he offers balance. I don't want run-away austerity, I want Corbyn to challenge it and stand up for workers' rights etc because it is through balance that the best outcome and justice for the people is achieved. I don't want a world of Establishment promoted PPEs, I want Corbyn to challenge them.

I also think the USA treats the poor appallingly. And it certainly does have both a class system and not a meritocracy, if it ever did. Bush, Bush, Bush and Bush for example.

But I'd rather stick to Greece, here.

'Do you like the Russian elite?'

I've never met them. I don't know who they are.

'I am hmm about the likelihood of any society being truly (or even to some degree) meritocratic, but perhaps my cynicism is unwarranted'

Your cynicism is warranted, but it is important to remain optimistic and hope for change.

'the on bar in the Dog and Duck'

It's a joke, it requires a sense of humour.

I don't see how Claig can be considered a troll, even if you don't agree with her or feel she is disingenuous. ?

Unless this is some benign friendly version of trolling aka discussion with a bit of banter and some disagreement ?

Well Hully, I don't know if you know this, but typically socialism and neo-liberalism are considered to be quite different ideologies, with very different policies attached to each.

It is contradictory to say that you like both. It's like saying "I love the fact that Corbyn wants to increase taxes on the rich and I love the fact that Margaret Thatcher's govt. reduced taxes on the rich". Can you see how that is a contradictory statement?

Hully - I'm not sure how you can possibly see a consistent viewpoint from claig. I see a consistent viewpoint ("what are Russia's interests") - but as you don't seem to agree she's a Kremlinbot, you are obviously seeing something else. What are claig's "consistent viewpoints"?

Are you a UKIP supporter too, Hully? Do you think one can both support UKIP's policies & aims and Jeremy Corbyn's policies and aims?

I've never met them. I don't know who they are.

How interesting. Have you met the UK's elite? Have you met Greece's elite? How do you know who Greece's elite are?

Who do you think Russia's elite might be? Do you think Russia is better or worse than the USA?

Are you a Kremlinbot?

If you want a job that doesn't involve tying yourself in intellectual knots I could potentially point you in the right direction. PM me. ? ?????? ?????? ??-?????? ?? ?????? - ?? ???????? ?????? ??-???????

I think she's paid to contribute to discussions on Mumsnet - whether or not you think that's being a troll or not is another matter.

Claig .... Re your "Try and keep up. I like Thatcher, Farage, Varoufakis and Jeremy Corbyn. There is no contradiction, because I like freedom and the power of the people over the bureaucrats, PPEs and elites."

Your 'like' for Thatcher is your cover, as your rhetoric is far closer to 'Wolfie' Smith from the Tooting Popular Front, rather than any Conservative, 'lapsed' or not - so Thatcher luv attempts to square your leftie rhetoric AND your apparent luv for (UK domestic policy less but anti Europe), Farage, an ex Tory.

Putin would clearly favour the Marxists in Greece, as he would the far left Labour dinosaur Corbyn - as Russia came sooooooo close by 1979 to having more influence here, until the Conservatives ruined it, and why Putin would rather Labour would have got re elected in 2010, via Miliband, the son of a Marxist academic - with policies/ideology similar to Labour's in the 1970's.

”We came close to losing our democracy in 1979”
www.spectator.co.uk/features/3665728/we-came-close-to-losing-our-democracy-in-1979/

”Douglas Eden reveals the extraordinary penetration of the 1970s Labour movement by pro-Soviet trade unionists and the extent of Callaghan’s toleration of the hard Left”

And I still think claig is using anti-Semitic dogwhistling language. And that pisses me off, a lot.

what claig is consistently saying (i hope you're enjoying this claig) is that she supports people power (shorthand) and whatever advances that and provides checks and balances on both sides is a good thing. Therefore she likes lots of different "sides" parts, where those parts further that aim.

I think UKIP is supported on balance as it is anti non-democratic EU.

Can't say I have any time for Ukip, but in so far as claig's aims are concerned, it makes a sense of sorts.

paid to post on MN
really??
why?

isitme, you are sounding more and more like a swivel-eyed loon tilting at windmills.

claig sounds like a model of reason in comparison.

paid to post on MN hahahaha

and yet she is accused of being a conspiracy theorist.

Surely that would be throwing money away
Posting on here is akin to whistling into the wind?

Ha, me & isitmebut face a disagreement. I do think it's unlikely Britain would have lost its democracy had the Labour party won in 1979 - after all, some of the changes made by Thatcher were first mooted by Barbara Castle but sadly were shot down.

& I don't think either Miliband is close to the 70s in policies - and considering Russia's treatment of the Jews and Ralph Miliband's dislike of Sovietism & involvement in teh New left, the hard line against Russia would have been kept up.

Hully & Suzanne - Kremlin trolls are paid to post on all social media sites.

Really.

Read the article posted by Isitmebut before.

Guardian comment section is another hotbed of Kremlinbots.