The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

Just went on the largest US conspiracy site to see what they are saying and they think the elite will engineer a coup in Greece to topple Syriza in order to keep Greece out of the Russian orbit.

I don't think that is right, I think Tsipras is already a 100% asset of the elite. But we will see what happens.

By the way, to posters earlier upthread, 'Sub-Saharan' Africa is NOT all-starving & all-warring. What a ridiculous assertion!

tbh I'm not really on board with your 'Farage as messiah' theme Claig, I feel that deification is probably counterproductive

No one said it was effective, Suzanne. Just that Kremlinbots swarm over every site in Social media, there's no reason MN would be excluded

Ah, OK I wasnt aware of this Alyosha, thank you for the earlier links

You keep alluding to Obama. I am not catching much on the news or in the paper about US interventions. Can you post a link. Not doubting you, just curious.

The Greeks and Tsipras are humiliating mighty Germany and all of the European College of Europe class of bureaucrats

Banks are still closed. The latest Greek proposal is like the one they voted against, except harsher. It's hard to see where this "humiliating" of Germany is happening, other than in your imagination.

'tbh I'm not really on board with your 'Farage as messiah' theme Claig'

suzanne, it's a joke. The metropolitan elite hate Farage, so boosting him up is a laugh.

'You keep alluding to Obama. I am not catching much on the news or in the paper about US interventions. Can you post a link. Not doubting you, just curious.'

This is only my guess, I may be wrong. This type of thing is not made public because that is not how it is done.

However, the IMF released it report 3 or 4 days before the referendum against ECB advice, apparenty on American government advice and that helped Tsipras and we have other reports such as in April 205

"Greece's finance minister Yanis Varoufakis is due to meet President Barack Obama on Thursday, in a sign that Athens is appealing to the highest levels of international diplomacy to secure its future in the eurozone.

Mr Obama has previously indicated his support for the Leftist government, calling for a fast and equitable solution to the country's debt crisis.

"You cannot keep on squeezing countries that are in the midst of depression," the US president said in February following Syriza's election victory."

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11534402/IMF-warns-Greek-negotiations-are-not-working-as-Athens-ramps-up-default-threats.html

Obama is keeping out of it, but what is significant is what he says and what he doesn't say.

This is from yesterday

"Barack Obama pushes Angela Merkel to back down as eurozone leaders openly prepare for Greek exit

US President makes his first personal intervention in the crisis for months after European leaders openly plan for Greek exit from the single currency"

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11725041/Five-days-to-save-the-eurozone-from-disaster.html

Merkel needs all the help she can get at this stage and what Obama has said has not particularly strengthened her position. He has not slapped Greece down which he could have done, he has said a deal needs to be found, Greece should remain in the Eurozone and according to this report he has told Merkel to back down.

'The latest Greek proposal is like the one they voted against, except harsher.'

According to reports, the Greeks turned up without a proposal. The PPE turned up with a handwritten note on hotel paper to the meeting with all the assembled bigwigs from Europe.

Deutsche Bank thinks the deal will be worse for Greece. I disagree. let's wait and see

"George Saravelos at Deutsche Bank thinks Athens will have to bow down and accept much harsher bail-out conditions than those they have previously had rejected by creditors."

Here is the White House

White House intervenes (again)

"Washington has been forced to watch on the sidelines as Europe has lurched from fresh crisis to crisis over Greece. Last night, president Obama made his first personal intervention in many a month, phoning both Angela Merkel and PM Tsipras to call for a solution.

It didn't seem to do the trick as the summit ended without agreement. Jack Lews, treasury secretary, is speaking at the Brookings Institute today and has again warned of the geopolitical risks associated with Grexit."

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11725248/Greece-news-live-Athens-submits-three-year-rescue-plan-after-Alexis-Tsipras-is-torn-apart-by-euro-MPs.html

I still think Germany will be forced to cave in. But no one knows. This is high stakes poker and so far Tsipras has not blinked, which makes me think he has support.

It all depends what the elite's real strategy is. I haven't met them so I don't know, I can only guess.

Tsipras has been told not to blink in my opinion and if the Germans are so stupid as to go for a GREXIT, then the elite are OK with that and that will be the end of the Euro and possibly of the European Union. That will have huge consequences throughout Europe and most of the parties across Europe who supported the EU will lose elections and Farage and co, laughed at by the metropolitan elite, will win elections across Europe. It is of incredible importance what happens. It will be as big as the fall of the Berlin Wall if the EU supporting parties preside over the end of the Euro.

I think France and Italy are terrified that Tsipras won't blink and therefore Merkel will have to blink.

Here is the French economist who is the darling of the Labour Party, Russell Brand and all left wing parties worldwide

"Grexit would be 'beginning of the end' of euro: Piketty

European leaders need to take a more "realistic" outlook on Greece and yield ground on debt forgiveness, French economist Thomas Piketty said Tuesday.

He contended that German Chancellor Angela Merkel has taken a hypocritical stance, as the German economy was given more flexibility with debt reductions after World War II. Without concessions that allow Athens to invest in infrastructure and economic growth, Greece could leave the euro zone—the so-called Grexit—and start "the beginning of the end" for the common currency, Piketty said."

www.cnbc.com/id/

If that were to happen, it would be a calamity for most of the European political class.

So I think Merekel will blink and Obama won't slap Greece down. But we will have to wait and see. As Tusk, The EU President, Tusk, said, this is the biggest crisis in the European Union's history and Tsipras still hasn't blinked.

What happens really depends on the game of poker played by the real elite.

Unless Obama is going to stump up some serious cash, the EU's voters are all pretty against giving Greece unlimited funds & debt relief (what Tsipras wants) - especially considering the bitter pill they've had to swallow (Ireland, Portugal, Spain).

The electorates of these countries are sympathetic to Greece, but most (including me...) want Greece to pay back its debts and put in place reforms to set it up for future growth. Like actually collecting taxes, not using civil service jobs as a reward for voting for government, taxing the shipping industry more (which Tsipras was allegedly against...), reducing red tape for people setting up businesses, reducing the faff for imports/exports. All sensible measures.

That's democracy for you - if the citizens of Germany were a-ok with Greece never paying back its debts, Angela Merkel would have an easier hand to pay. She is constrained by her voters - just as she should be!

'Unless Obama is going to stump up some serious cash'

There is no way Obama will stump up cash except via the IMF. Germany will be told to sort its problems out.

The political fallout of a German cave in will be a problem for the European political class, the great and the good.

'She is constrained by her voters - just as she should be!'

Absolutely, but that is her problem and she has to solve it. No politician has a job for life, if they can't stand the heat, they have to get out of the kitchen. They are only in "power" temporarily.

Why do you think Germany will listen to the US without the sweetener of large sums of cash, claig?

The alternative to a German cave in, assuming the Greeks do not cave in (and I think they won't because I think they have support) would be a GREXIT and that could spell the end of the Euro, panic in markets, and College of Europe graduates queueing up at the dole office from Madrid to Berlin - no more expenses, no more free lunches, no more EU wide rooftop wind turbine regulations and the prospect of hearing Farage's laugh and seeing the smoke from his fag billowing through the Strasbourg Parliament.

It would be the metroplitan elite's worst nightmare and the people's best dream.

And she is solving it - just not in the way that you might like.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Greece if they do leave both the Eurozone & the EU - will they keep up their anti-corruption efforts or will it be a return to the bad old ways?

Who's supporting Greece? And why on earth would Greece leaving the Eurozone cause so much panic - the elite of Europe seem very sanguine about it right now, so they don't really seem to be too worried about the dole office.

Why is it the people's best dream to have their savings converted from hard currency into drachma funny money? Are you that gleeful about the pain for ordinary Greeks when they leave the Euro? A little compassion might not go amiss, claig.

'Why do you think Germany will listen to the US without the sweetener of large sums of cash, claig?'

Because this is high stakes poker and the Euro is at stake as well as possibly the entire European project. France and Italy must be having crisis meetings, metropolitan elites across Europe must be in meltdown meetings and drinks are on the house at the Dog and Duck. France and Italy will tell Germany to make a deal because Tsipras doesn't appear to understand the meaning of the word blink.

'And she is solving it - just not in the way that you might like. '

She is not doing it the way that darling of the Labour Party, Russell Brand, Che Guevara, Fidel Castro and every other left winger on the planet wants

"Grexit would be 'beginning of the end' of euro: Piketty

European leaders need to take a more "realistic" outlook on Greece and yield ground on debt forgiveness, French economist Thomas Piketty said Tuesday.

He contended that German Chancellor Angela Merkel has taken a hypocritical stance, as the German economy was given more flexibility with debt reductions after World War II. Without concessions that allow Athens to invest in infrastructure and economic growth, Greece could leave the euro zone—the so-called Grexit—and start "the beginning of the end" for the common currency, Piketty said."

That's not answering the question - what are the consequences for Germany for not doing what the US wants?

What is your point? You are not a "left-winger" - why don't you support the way she's doing it? Are you a supporter of Fidel Castro too, now?

Piketty's a dude. We'll see if he's right.

You can't trust Greece to invest, though. Germany's been burnt before. They gave millions and millions and millions of euros to Greece of infrastructure projects that never materialised. Why should they trust Greece now?

How is it the people's dream for Greece to leave the Euro?

'Who's supporting Greece?'
The elite.

'And why on earth would Greece leaving the Eurozone cause so much panic - the elite of Europe seem very sanguine about it right now, so they don't really seem to be too worried about the dole office.'

That's for the cameras. They are politicians. They are told what suit and tie to wear and they even have consultants to teach them how to smile a la Gordon Brown. But in private, there is probably cold sweats, chattering of teeth and so many mobile phones being thrown across the room that it makes Gordon Brown's office look like a haven of calm, reason and prudence.

'Why is it the people's best dream to have their savings converted from hard currency into drachma funny money? Are you that gleeful about the pain for ordinary Greeks when they leave the Euro? A little compassion might not go amiss, claig.'

I agree the whole thing is a calamity, which is why I think Germany will blink. Us People's Army supporters do like to have a litle bit of a laugh when we are proven right and the Dog and Duck has never been so cheerful, but it woud be a calamity for millions of people and it would spread acroos Europe, so Merkel will blink, I think.

'That's not answering the question - what are the consequences for Germany for not doing what the US wants?'

I think they are the potential end of the Euro and then the potential end of the European Union as voters across Europe vote for Farage and co who will say I told you so.

"You are not a "left-winger"

Certainly not, I'm People's Army.

'why don't you support the way she's doing it?'

She doesn't take notice of my support. I support Farage. I am only an observer. All I can do is guess what might happen if she does X or Y. My guess is she will have no choice but to blink because I don't think Tsipras is going to blink.

in my opinion, Germany has no choice, it has been played and the elite have taught it and the entire European political class a lesson.

Very interesting article. I don't believe all of it, but it says the US is with France and Italy putting pressure on for a deal.

"France's prime minister, Manuel Valls said Grexit and the rupture of monetary union must be prevented as the highest strategic imperative. "We cannot let Greece leave the eurozone. Nobody can say today what the political consequences would be, what would be the reaction of the Greek people," he said.

French leaders are working in concert with the White House. Washington is bringing its immense diplomatic power to bear, calling openly on the EU to put "Greece on a path toward debt sustainability" and sort out the festering problem once and for all.

The Franco-American push is backed by Italy's Matteo Renzi, who said the eurozone has to go back to the drawing board and rethink its whole austerity doctrine after the democratic revolt in Greece. He too now backs debt relief.

...

But that is a detail compared with the damage to the European political project and the Nato alliance if Greece is thrown to wolves against the strenuous objections of France, Italy and the US.

It is hard to imagine what would remain of Franco-German condominium. Washington might start to turn its back on Nato in disgust, leaving Germany and the Baltic states to fend for themselves against Vladimir Putin's Russia, a condign punishment for such loss of strategic vision in Greece.

Mr Lapavitsas said Europe's own survival as civilisational force in the world is what is really at stake. "Europe has not show much wisdom over the last century. It launched two world wars and had to be saved by the Americans," he said

"Now with the creation of monetary union it has acted with such foolishness, and created such a disaster, that it is putting the very union in doubt, and this time there will be no saviour. It is the last throw of the dice for Europe," he said."

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11724924/Europe-is-blowing-itself-apart-over-Greece-and-nobody-can-stop-it.html

The stakes could not be higher. Someone has to blink, I still say Germany. I think Tsipras was told to call their bluff.

'Italy's Matteo Renzi, who said the eurozone has to go back to the drawing board and rethink its whole austerity doctrine after the democratic revolt in Greece. He too now backs debt relief.'

Wow. What a humiliation for Germany the bankers, he EU political class and the austerity team if the Greeks pull this off.

From Max Keiser on the Twitters:-

"The current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around $370Bn. No one wants to know. Meanwhile have a look at these bailouts and the banks that had no problem getting them from taxpayers like you and me.

Citigroup - $2.513 Trn
Morgan Stanley - $2.041Trn
Merril Lynch - $1.949Trn
Bank of America - $1.344Trn
Barclays - $868Bn
Bear Stearns - $853Bn
Goldman Sachs - $814Bn
RBS - $541Bn
JP Morgan Chase - $391Bn.

So no austerity for the banks and the Greek people are expected to pay for the ECB and IMF paying the private banks back the money Greece borrowed.

claig, you wrote:-

In America, Bernie Madoff is in jail and the Securitiees and Exchange Commision actually has teett and there is some regulation to protect individuals and investors

Bernie Madoff is in chokey because his Ponzi scheme took money off the rich, much like Allen Stanford did. The SEC will not prosecute the self admitted thief Jamie Dimon, they let him steal his way to becoming a billionaire. The difference being Dimon and others steal from us ordinary people, not the rich.