The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

I like Zoe Williams becuase she is clever and has a sense of humour. What did she say about Johnson?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/may/01/boris.livingstone

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/may/01/boris-johnson-year-london-mayor

Thanks, Gemauve, she did go a bit over the top, but everyone makes mistakes.

This is a tragedy for the people of Greece but it is a comedy where the real elite are showing the world what an incompetent bunch of jokers the EU elite are.

Greece has obviously been backed by a more powerful force than the EU servants and they are desperately floundering in the world's gaze trying to maintain their currency and their entire Union.

The French minister. Moscovici, was just on BBC Radio 4 Today programme and the whole plan of the European elite is that Greece must stay in the Eurozone and Greece must buckle. But Greece is backed by the real elite which is why it can stick its fingers up and Moscovici and all the EU servants are going to be humiliated worldwide.

The real elite doesn't want the end of the EU but it wants it weakened and cut down to size.

The plan i to make the European bigwigs, elites, College of Europe graduates look like the minows they really are compared to the real elite. The world will see who is really boss in Europe and it isn't the EU servant political class.

Maybe the problem isn't that a PPE degree is "bad." Just that there are too many people with the same degree from the same 2 schools. However good these schools and courses of study are, there is a bit of "group think" going on. A diversity of opinion and ideas would be better. Stupid us, we keep voting them all in!

claig, who is this "real" elite?

WhattodowithMum, it's America, the global superpower.

But it is not their politicians, because just lke our PPEs, their politicians only serve their Establisment and their real elite.

But what we are seeing is a total humiliation of the Germans and the EU elites by the American elites and it is a good thing because we are seeing that the European elites are incompetent jokers who are prepared to make European citizens suffer for the irresponsibility of their own banking masters.

America is better, it would never let the entire population of Louisiana suffer because of the irresponsibility of Wall Street. And it even bailed out all of Europe after the Second World War. Who woud you rather be ruled by? The College of Europe cronies or the United States? There's no contest.

In America, Bernie Madoff is in jail and the Securitiees and Exchange Commision actually has teett and there is some regulation to protect individuals and investors. It is not like our toothless regulatory old boys' network PPE Oxbridge okey-cokey system where no bankers are jailed and the business of swindling the people carries on as usual.

WhattodowithMum, you're right our system encourages PPE groupthink, where they are all too frightened to challenge the Establishment. We can see it clearly in the Labour leadership election. The one candidate who has any diversity and poses any challenge to the groupthink Estabishment consensus, who dares to gaze beyond the PPE enclosure, is written off and treated like a pariah.

We need diversity, we need an end to groupthink, we need some different alternatives to the mismanagement we have been subject to.

Of course, we are very fortunate to have some diversity and anti PPE groupthink. This is the latest tweet from our most innovative thinker and statesman

"Nigel Farage ?@Nigel_Farage · 44m44 minutes ago

Mr. Juncker nicked my #Oxi sign in the European Parliament when I turned my back. Don't worry, I went and got it back."

twitter.com/nigel_farage

I'm still confused on whether or not Alexis Tsipras is a tool of the elite - he called a referendum (good according to Claig) but that referendum is propelling the Greeks out of the Eurozone (good & bad to Claig because she hates the EU but also thinks it suits the elites for the Eurozone to break up). She also likes Thatcher, because she "broke up the old boys club" despite the fact that Thatcher demonstrably increased inequality and destroyed the livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of people (just imagine if she'd done that in Greece - claig would be the first to call her a tool of the elites!).

But she also likes Corbyn, because he didn't study PPE at university. Despite the fact that if he'd been in power during the 80s his policies would have been so far different from Margaret Thatcher's they'd have been in the Andromeda galaxy.

Basically claig is reading off a list of RT talking points, which is why she sounds so unhinged. She cares not what the outcome of policies are, just who is in power - and whether or not RT has endorsed said person.

And I'd also like to point out that if the EU hadn't secured private debt, pension funds, local councils, everyday depositors across Europe would have been ruined. But who cares, as long as Greeks can retire at 50. FFS!

And claig, a note re: Antisemitism. You don't get to use the language of veiled anti-semitism that has been used by the establishment media in this country for decades ("rootless cosmopolitans" "North London intellectuals" "Metropolitan elite") and not get called out on it. It's a dog whistle. You may very well not intend to be anti-semitic, but I am not the only person to have picked up on the signals you are sending, loud and clear.

if the USA is so good how come they have inequality even more exreme than ours

I'm still confused on whether or not Alexis Tsipras is a tool of the elite'

Absolutely, 100%, or he wouldn't have gotten away with it and wouldn't have been able to take the entire College of Europe crew on.

"but that referendum is propelling the Greeks out of the Eurozone (good & bad to Claig because she hates the EU but also thinks it suits the elites for the Eurozone to break up)."

It is not, because Obama has said he wants Greece in the Eurozone and France and Italy are panicking because they know if Greece leaves then it may be the end of the entire servant dream. Germany has played tough and the Greeks called their bluff. I think Germany will end up humiliated and it is because Greece are being backed. I am with the elite on this one (unlike on climate change, but one day they will come round to my position on that as well). But the elite don't want the real breakup, I think, they only want it weakened and cut down to size.

'Basically claig is reading off a list of RT talking points'

Have you ever watched RT? It would be right up your street. It's exactly like the BBC - endless programmes on institutional racism, inequaity, progressive solutions, progressive comedians etc etc. It's nothing like the Daily Mail, it's like the BBC.

'Basically claig is reading off a list of RT talking points'

No they wouldn't and the EU's bluff has been called. Obama has been telling the Germans to do QE for years and they kept refusing. America is fed up of the Germans not paying their way and sorting out the problems of Europe. They expect some action and they will get it.

The Germans have had the benefit of the Euro for cheap expots and other countries in Europe have suffered near 50% youth unemployment while Germany has low unemployment and it is not because the rest ofEurope are lazy, it is because of German intransigence on austerity and the Euro. Now the Americans have had enough and the Germans have lost.

"Is QE a defeat for Germany, or a strategic retreat?

Angela Merkel's pragmatism over the ECB's stimulus is a turning point in the trials and tribulations of the euro
...
With eurozone inflation now in negative territory, it has quite plainly been failing in this duty. Open ended QE is designed to correct the problem. Even if it ultimately doesn’t work, the ECB is doomed to try.

The fact that it has taken the ECB so long to get round to it is largely down to German intransigence."

The Germany Chancery and Bundesbank have been resisting it for best part of the last two years, and they still don’t like it. Ms Merkel is said to be deeply unhappy with what’s happened.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/davos/11367403/Is-QE-a-defeat-for-Germany-or-a-strategic-retreat.html

The Americans want a stable Europe and an easing in austerity policies which have failed and more QE, just like Obama did for the US, and are fed up of having to intervene and sort things out Europe because of the incompetence of the College of Europe crew.

Everybody and their uncle now uses the word "metropolitan elite", it has nothing to do with anti-semitism. Mliband uses it, Simon Danczuk uses it, endless Labour MPs use it, half the Guardian staff use it, the Daily Mail very occasionally uses it. It represents our out of touch political class of Oxbridge graduates, and for you to think it has anything to do with anti-semitism shows you up for what you are.

'if the USA is so good how come they have inequality even more exreme than ours'

Because they have new poor immigrants arriving from the rest of the world, but they soon prosper and make it. It is a dynamic country, it has problems, but there is a ladder up which is why people want to go to America.

Sky has just reported that they saw the unusual sight of Nigel Farage getting some cheers in the European Parliament when he said he backed the people of Greece in standing up to the bully boys of Brussels.

The tide is turning, the people are winning, the bankers are on the backfoot for now.

Suzannethecan - I can see you have finally realised the issue with Claig. She hates the US, she thinks they're manipulating the Ukraine, she loves the US. She can't make her mind up (because she doesn't have a mind - it's a collection of "today's talking points" handed to her by her Kremlinbot mates/or she genuinely changes her mind every 2 seconds).

claig - I thought you hated the elite because they are taking away sovereignty with the EU? Why would they want that to change?

Why can't you keep your opinions straight, seriously? It's bizarre.

The other reason I think you're a Kremlinbot is because you make it so difficult to discuss anything as your opinions change so often. Kremlinbot policy is that if you can't win the argument (as claig can't) you sully it, by dragging it off topic and making it impossible for people to engage. Well done claig!

Why do you think RT focuses so much on those kind of issues, claig?

'Why do you think RT focuses so much on those kind of issues, claig?'

For the same reason the BBC does - to undermine conservatives, business, capitalism etc

I said I switch those programmes off and hardly ever watch the BBC, apart from progressive Newsnight and the absolutely brilliant non-progressive Andrew Neil. I prefer Sky News.

I'm sure that the US has virtues that the UK doesn't (and vice-versa) but is it not as much a corporatocracy, does the US banking system not ?predate upon the 'regular' economy?

Surely any elite group will be corrupt because power concentrated in the hands of a few people inevitably leads to corruption?
If anything Claig you seem to have too much faith in the potential of humans to act in ways which are benevolent ?
?

I don't hate the US, it's the best country on the planet. It gave us Elvis, rock music, Hollywood, freedom, Apple computers, Mircosoft, Google and most of the freedoms and wealth we enjoy after they bailed Europe out after the War.

Of course the US is manipulating Ukraine, that's politics and power. I think it is a wrong policy, just as I think the Iraq War was wrong and Cameron wanting to bomb Assad which would have strengthened the position of Al Nusra, Al Qaeda, Isis and all the rest of that lot was wrong, and hat rooftop wind turbines are a wrong policy. But that is power and that is how things are done.

'claig - I thought you hated the elite because they are taking away sovereignty with the EU? Why would they want that to change?'

Becaue there are different elites. There is the EU elite of unelected bureaucrats and College of Europe graduates and there is the American elite. I prefer the Americans because they offer business, growth, prosperity, freedom, soverignty, Apple computers, Microsoft, Google, Elvis and Hollywood rather than austerity and dictatorship which abandons a whole country to suffering in order to bail out their own banking masters with public money.

'The other reason I think you're a Kremlinbot is because you make it so difficult to discuss anything as your opinions change so often. '

Try and keep up. I like Thatcher, Farage, Varoufakis and Jeremy Corbyn. There is no contradiction, because I like freedom and the power of the people over the bureaucrats, PPEs and elites.

But I thought you liked undermining business & capitalism - that's Corbyn's position, isn't it?

Is it OK for Russia to manipulate Ukraine?

Do you like the Russian elite?

Alyosha ..... Re your "And I am 15% sure she is a Kremlinbot. The other 85% thinks professional troll." yesterday.

As you may be aware from the the link I post (below) that for a while now I am convinced that the 'claig' handle is the former, a 'Kremlinbot' - possibly shared by more than one poster, as the opinion does change based on the topics.
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

My rule of claig thumb is that if claig wangs on about 'PPE's' more than 10-times over two pages, then that entity known as claig, has gone on 'tilt' - so should be left alone to 'reset' rather than challenged - otherwise you get a world full of bollocks back.

Now I am possibly the last poster here to criticise numerous posts within a subject, but often, whether talking about UKIP (attacking the EU), Russia, or Putin's dodgy policies (using Frage's admiration at cover), it was if trying to 'spoil' effective debate/points by moving the thread on a couple of pages - often using reams of posts/links with the whole content printed rather than salient features relating to the discussion.

Claig basically stands for whatever Russia/Putin stands for, which was clear when I began a link on Russian aircraft 'buzzing' the UK, but uses different 'angles' to attack the West, which is why there is little consistency to her opinions across all subjects.

I am about the likelihood of any society being truly (or even to some degree) meritocratic, but perhaps my cynicism is unwarranted

No Suzannethecan, you have it all wrong! The elite are the elite because they studied PPE at Oxbridge. The moment you graduate you with PPE you are a member of the global elite and are jewish a nasty North London intellectual with no roots who wants to control the world banking system.

so transparent

Isitmebut - quite. She's never drawn on direct discussions on Russia, either. And the constant "world banking elite rootless metropolitan north london intellectual", sorry "jew" dog whistling is very annoying too.

she knows the audience she's playing to (or he, or them)