Comments of dress and rape

[Blandmum]

Cleric suspended for his comments linking dress to rape

I am very pleased that the mosque comittee has suspended him for 3 months to ponder on the inadvisability of his comments. Postivie too was the way the Australian muslim community has condemned him.

His comments linking uncovered women to 'meat' were utterly repugnant

it might be unrealistic to try to stop rape happening ever....but

allowing the implication that a woman can ask for it by her mode of dress,,or men can't help it becaue they are led by their penises....it's just too dangerous...i hear what you are saying...but i really don't think middle ground or reasonablness can come into this..

Well I don't accept rape either. I don't accept murder; but surely we still all apreciate that understanding why something happens is the best way to stop it?

Lulu, there is no implication, it's a fact - an awful one, but a fact non the less. No one in their right mind would extrapolate that to say it was therefore a woman's fault. This argument always falls down a silppery slope before the issues can really be understood.

But it's important that the principle is policed. What about 14 year old girls who have no idea about the effect they are having on men and only know that dressing in a certain way gets them attention?

I think that 'practical' approach to rape legislation is dangerous, and only one step away from the 'she was asking for it' attitude.

rape is divided into too many categories

rape by a stranger
date rape
rape within a marriage or relationship
incest
etc
but are they not all driven by the same thing

a need to overpower and domiante a woman...

and i am sorry. i was not implying you accept it in anyway

Has anyone read any psychological profiles of serial rapists? That would answer some questions.

The sort of men who think women are asking for it are not going to be particularly influenced by how they're dressed, surely (unless that's part of their psychosis, but women surely can't be held responsible for this).

As a particularly odious male aquaintance of mine used to say: "well, if you will go out with those boobs and that bum..."

We absolutely, but laws based on a principle of equality are priveledges, and you only have prioveledges in advanced democracies. There are studies about the causes of rape. The need to overpower and dominate a women doesn't socre higly as a ultimate explanation, overpower and dominate in order to have sex with her against her will - yes. And any way you look at that, it's wrong. But the power thing is a red herring.

Well all discussions like this do it perpetuate the myth that somehow a woman can cause rape
Certainly there are ways of women avoiding rape, dark alleys/drunkeness/provocative pricktease behaviours - which I'm sure many men think is WHY most women get raped
WRONG - these rapes are unusual if yous tudy rape stats.
Most women get raped by men they know, trust or are friendly with or have befriended to some degree
Or the increasing drug rape, which is where vigilance can save your ass so to speak.

Woo, when civil society breaks down, the rape stats shoot up. These are not commited by serial criminals, but opportunistic men. It's a very complex area, but opportunistic mating may be part of masculinity which finds expression in certain environments, such as war zones for example, when the indiginous population of men are away fighting and there is less chance of being caught.

And also
rape is not about sex, it's about power.

I have do disagree Piff, with respect. That's a slogan that has little meaning for me in the face of the evidence on rape.

But what is the next step MT, when women are all dressed in a non sexually provocative way, is the next step being out on the stree after dark? Will that, then, be provocation enough? Or being out without a male guardian?

The sexual provocation thing is also, IMHO, a red herring. Normal men don't fuck in the street, they control themselves. I cant think of any society when copulation happens in public. We can all control ourselves. Some people choose not to.

well both times with me it certainly was the case.

and by public, I am thinking 'on the street', not open air cottaging by gay men

Psychiatrists seem to agree that men who rape the elderly are not sexually arrounsed by them per se, but rather it is an act of vengence.

MT 'rape is a naturally occurring phenomenon' - that made me shudder

I don't think rape is natural, I don't think it can be excused and I certainly think we should be allowed to expect that rape should never happen.

Wel that's why femnists are so scared of thinkimng this way MB, but it does not follow that women's freedom needs to be curtailed, but that men and women, boys and girls, need to be more aware of the risks of certain situations. No exuses, just explanations.

And as for thinking rape isn't natural' everything in nature is natural. Simply because soemthing is natural doesn't make it morally good. It simply 'is'. Morals come after, and rape is immoral.

Piff, i won't get into your personal; experience. many of us on this thread have had simialr experiences, as a previous thread revelaed. I'm trying to remain objective and scientific. I hope you inderstand.

Yes the words
"That Got you, you icy bitch" make me think it was more about winning than anything.
He got his beans though, justice was SERVED and nit by a court
No way in the world HE will ever forget what happened, however I have months where I do

MT but when you are raped it is personal.
Hard to see how one could view it otherwise
I know how I felt about rape before it happened to me, I thought it happened to loose women walking home alone at night wearing fishnet tights and fuck me boots
Alas this probably was my downfall

come on, though, are we seriously to believe that in countries where women are veiled and covered up, women are free of sexual assault.
what a load of old toss, sorry.
rape is about men asserting their (sexual) power over women.
in a culture where women are subordinate, they are not free to choose their own sexual partners or the nature of their sexual encounters or experiences.

I don't think feminist are scared to think this way I think they are too angry to countinence it.

If men can't make sure they can control their penis they should have a fucking curfew. It is their behavior that is abhorant, not the woman's.

And if sex is the only driving force, why do so many rapists also use their fists, knives and bottles?

I don't think rape is natural - just because it happens, doesn't make it 'natural'.

Fox, that's a logical fallacy. Just because it happens doesn't make it acceptable. Nature is a differeint thing to morality.

Pif, I am not ignorant of your experience, but like I said, I'm being objective.

Hapsi, I never said that. Of course that's rubbish. Please don't turn to straw man tactics.

no sorry I wasn't replying to your points directly monkeytrousers, I just think that we are looking at "rape" incredibly narrowly.