Comments of dress and rape

[Blandmum]

Cleric suspended for his comments linking dress to rape

I am very pleased that the mosque comittee has suspended him for 3 months to ponder on the inadvisability of his comments. Postivie too was the way the Australian muslim community has condemned him.

His comments linking uncovered women to 'meat' were utterly repugnant

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if someone has already posted this. An interesting take from popbitch:

">> Arabian nights

actually I find it pretty refreshing. it makes a change to hear someone actually expressing their true unvarnished views and saves us from speculating as to the logical conclusion of the reasoning behind such cultural strictures.
if you say women should cover their bodies/hair/faces in order to preserve their "modesty" or "honour" from the gaze of men, and put the responsibility for men's actions onto women, then it is a pretty short step from that to say that if women don't do that, well they have had fair warning, if something happens then they only have themselves to blame.
the really scary thing is that men like this have power and influence over cultures and communities and even over countries.

On giving this some thought, I do think that said cleric's surmon could be translated as follows...

"men are animals. so, women, if I were you, I would cover up, because men are incapable of thinking with their brains and think with their penises, and are unable to control their urges, so if you don't cover up, you're likely to get screwed."

and it will be your fault if it happens.

I was also taken by his description of atheists, christians and jews as being the 'worst' of god's creation. nice!

yes it will be your fault because men are incapable of taking responsibility

re the atheest/christian remarks though, I grew up in South Africa, and there they are very strongly christian, and they also believe ahat anyone who doesn't worship God in the same way they do is destined for hell.

Isn't that fundamentally true of all major religions except Judaism and Buddhism?

It's a tribal view, isn't it. 'Anything that isn't forbidden is mandatory'.

I found that bit very odd since Islam gives more 'cred' to Christianity and Judiasm as 'people of the book' than it does to, say, Hinduism or athiasm.

There was a Muslim woman on Radio 5 last week saying pretty much the same as this cleric, her view was that women get assaulted because of provocative dress, so that's why she wears the veil. Strong implication of what else did women expect? She wasn't challenged at all by the presenter (Victoria whatever) for saying this, either.

That's probably because Judaism and Islam sprung from the same source (dregging my memory back through RE lessons at school).

yes, that is why. Seems this cleric 'cehrry picks' what he chooses to take from the Koran

Jewish women (orthodox religious women) are expected to dress modestly at all times and to cover their hair with a wig or scarf ...but i don;t ever recall hearing a rabbi condemning women in such a way or so publicly....

absolutely agree with the 'cherry picking' comment

Well, I know this will potentially offend but...

The Jewish culture has a very strong intellectual tradition, whereas Islam appears to be much more emotional in it's approach.

(Any Muslims or scholars of Islam please feel free to contradict. Always like to take the chance to decrease my ignorance quotient).

Well it is possible to be a feminist and a Christian [one of Jesus Christ;s disciples was a female former prostitute] and a feminist and Jew. It may well be possible to be a feminist and a Muslim too. Religious teachings have been from the year dot warped and twisted to suit a patriarchal society where women are oppressed.

I've heard plenty of feminist Muslims on TV. They make the point that the modesty asked for in the Koran applies to both men and women, and that if women should wear the hijab, then so should men.

I think that it is possible to be a feminist and a 'insert name of religion here'.

However I feel that it is safe to say that this cleric isn't a feminist!

If it is men cannot control their 'base' urges, I think they should be the ones to stay in the house!

yes MB, just pedantically picking up on Whobewhoo's exclusion of Christianity in her first point!

In that case ruty, may I pedantically point out that I excluded Christianity and just used Judaism in my example because Christianity sprang from Judaism.

Pedants R Us

And MB, I agree. We are animals - but surely the main difference between us and most other species is that we are able to control our more basic urges in the interest of furthering civilisation.

Any man who finds himself unable to comply should be put away.

I know I'm preaching to the converted: it's just frustrating.

The 'blame the victim' mentality sickens me. What next I wonder, ethnic minorities 'blamed' for racists attacks? Vile, vile, vile.

The depth of his utter hatered and disregard for women just pored out of all his words, his choice of 'meat' as a metaphor, utterly repugnant.

I understand that this justification was used by a group of men charged with some very violent gang rapes in Australia not so long ago. Vile.

When I was raped the first time I was wearing wellies, riding jodphurs, a great big bush shirt and smelt like stable.
2nd time was in jeans, wrap top and wool coat - it was my stalker so frankly I could have worn a cloak and mask...

Oh God piffle, I didn't know that this had happened to you. I'm so sorry, and doubly sorry if this thread has caused you any more anguish

oh piffle how awful.

piffle.

That makes it all the more important that men like this cleric (who would still maintain that it was your fault for not staying at home being supervised) should be shown up for the blind, harmful nutters that they are.

But putting how we all would all like society to be like for a minute, lets look at how it is.

What if being provocatively dressed did mean you were more likely to be sexually assaulted?

Rapes is morally wrong, just as murder and theft is; but what we aren't allowed to say is that rape is a naturally occurring phenomenon in all* cultures. Saying it shouldn't happen, saying that women should be able to walk the streets at any time, wearing whatever they want, and expect not to be assaulted is a bit unrealistic to me.

I'm not excusing rapists, or saying women should be covered up from head to foot and not allowed out if she's not in the company of a male relative.

But there is a very important middle ground that never gets talked about.

i don;t think there is a middle ground..rape is either accepted .

or not

and i say not.