Anti Semitism in the UK

[Oakmaiden]

This is in the news a lot at the moment.

I have never, to my knowledge, heard anyone make anti-Semitic remarks. Anti Islam, yes. Anti "them Polish people coming over here and taking our very badly paid jobs", yes. Anti Semitic, no. Am I just very lucky/ sheltered?

I live in the North East, streets away from a massive Jewish community. The last 4-6 weeks has seen a huge surge in police presence around the streets. Mounted police on daily patrols, police cars parked in most side streets from early evening to dawn, large riot vans dotted up and down the main road daily. It is daunting.

The Jewish community round my way have been here forever, and make great neighbours. I hope so much that they are left to live in peace.

I think posters have been making the (weaker and more accurate) statement that anti-zionism and criticism of Israel may be antisemitic.

i think the only people that get the israel/jewish thing mixed up are people that never liked jews in the first place. fwiw i know alot of jews who do not agree with alot of what israel does including my immediate family (alot of them) and quite alot of israelis i have met. they just want peace. alot of the people int he occupied areas are not israelis (europeans and americans). if israel disappeared tomorrow do you really think the 'jewish issue' would disappear? i doubt it...

I'm glad that's not your intention. Sometimes, its hard to tell.

I do think its important to discuss anti-semitism both as a unique phenomena which it is and as a not unique phenomena which it is as well.

Er that's very badly expressed.

MN can delete posts that are overtly racist. But you know, if a poster comes on to every thread about anti-semitism - there were a few last summer and I think there are two now - and each time repeatedly insists on making the same kind of contributions: "Well, other groups have it bad too" or "I've never heard of anti-semitism" or "Jews cry anti-semitism to silence criticism of Israel" and that's it, then to most readers, it will be quite clear that they have a problem with Jewish people.
And no, those individual posts wouldn't be deleted and that's fair enough.

cardonomonginger

Thank you. That is the first time that any Jewish person has said that to me.

How do you reduce anti Semitism? or perhaps the question should be how do you enhance the intellectual ability of people who hold any deep seated hatred/prejudices? Sadly, you don't because most prejudice is taught by parents, teachers, communities and the media, it becomes part of a child's thought process and inadequacies and they pass it on to their children. I'm sure the cycle could be broken somewhere along the line but human nature seems to be regressive not progressive so it won't happen in my lifetime.

It is important to acknowledge the suffering of other groups because hate crimes destroy people regardless of era or background. Recently it was reported that 212,000 people have been beaten up for being on benefits. There are many more examples of how hate crimes are on the increase. Having a Right Wing Government and media are fuelling the situation.

I'd like to see those comments Kim. And of course I don't agree with them.
I followed the Israel-Palestine threads and when I questioned the many people saying that anti-semitism did not exist (yes really) I was told several times that I was some kind of paid Israeli agent. (thread 5 or 7)

Answers? Education, education, education. And love. I remember how brave the women were at the Lee Rigby attack, and how they said you will not win. We need to love more and love harder.
(ooh er)

Cardamomginger

No. It's a tiresome excuse that "every parent makes choices for their children and inculcates values". This is obviously true...but that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about indoctrination and basically forcing her to believe what you do. And she will - even if you attempt the "some people believe line" - she'll be labelled a Jewish child, have religious observance at the heart of her life and go to a school which, by it's very existence, separates her from other children because of what you - and since her trusted Mummy tells her it's all true, it must be.

In any other arena, this kind of thing would be regarded as emotional abuse. At least you're not using state funds to so it...but this does rather highlight your determination to force her through a you-shaped mould.

The biggest tragedy of all of this, of course, is that the issues we're talking about all have one thing in common...they are based on a big fat lie.

People are sending their children to special schools to be taught lies. Muslims are hating other people because of myth, lie and legends. The world is tearing itself apart because of BULLSHIT.

How do we get rid of anti-semitism? Honestly? Stop fucking "respecting" the religious ideology that teaches it and laugh in the faces if the medieval pillocks who trot out their babble of incoherent crap.

That's what we do. And we'd have been doing it sooner if we weren't so busy poncily telling each other to "respect faith" and accusing anyone who doesn't of being a "racist".

i truly believe if people mixed with each other more it would help the cause. as i have stated earlier, i mix mostly with non jews and have lost count how many times people are genuinely surprised when i tell them i am jewish because (they have said this, this isn't my view) they thought i would be rich and or flashy etc. people wouldn't fear different types (at least as much) if they knew them, simple enough

jeanswithatwist
In my area the tiny number of jews are very happy to mix. I really don't think that the Jewish community could do any more. What do people want from them? Its OK to be different. If people don't like the fact that Jews have different traditions then that is THEIR problem.

I feel that a big mistake that we make is that we see racism/ relgious intolerance as purely as a white problem. We fail to acknowledge that different ethnic minorities can be awful to each other. We are too scared to challenge anti semitic behaviour from brown people.

I am not sure that the muslim community in my area are doing enough to counter act religious intolerance. (Call me racist if you like!)

I don't think anybody is being asked to respect religious beliefs themselves.

I think people are being asked to respect people's right to be part of a religion and support communities' right to cultural continuity, a large part of which will be religious for many groups.

Unless a group is breaking the law, physically harming others etc, shouldn't everyone support that?

It is very easy to say people should drop their religion and culture when large aspects of British culture face no similar threat. Our language, literature, music, film, sport, religious denominations and so on have moved from the UK to countries all around the world. It is hard to imagine what it is like to be a very small minority whose culture will only survive if you transmit it to your children.

Caffe - the logical conclusion of your argument is that no parent should be able to teach their child the values and practices of their faith or culture, including outside of a school setting.

Bringing up your child with the valyes of aggressive atheism (whether that does or does not make a nominal nod to C of E traditions) is also forcing a child to believe what you do - a you-shaped mould.

What version of Jewish belief and practice is actually acceptable to you, both as something to occupy as a lived present experience and to pass on to my child? From your last post, it seems to collapse into a trite liking for Woody Allen films, a preference for cholent, gefilte fish and bagels (apologies to any sephardim on the thread) and tales of what our grandparents, who didn't know any better, used to do. You have no right to decide that that should be enough for me.

Respecting people who hold religious beliefs is not the same as sharing particular relgious beliefs. Aggressive athetists generally act in accordance with the law and do not harass or murder people with different beliefs to them.

I don't mind if people have different religious opinons to me. Variety is what makes the world interesting. The few Jews I have met in real life are happy to agree to disagree with me. They follow their customs and my family follow our customs.

Caffe -

In any other arena, this kind of thing would be regarded as emotional abuse. This does rather highlight your determination to force her through a you-shaped mould.

no one is forcing anyone to believe anything. We keep a kosher home, and as our kids are part of it, they will need to keep kosher. Are you suggesting we should roast an occasional pig on a spit in the fireplace so that the kids can make up their mind whether to eat it?

You seem to be saying that if only people weren't so "Jew"ish, there would be no anti-semitism. In any other context, that would be a unacceptable comment - eg "I don't hate sikhs, but do they have to weat those silly hats and cook curries"? You might want to reconsider your views....

Really tired, just to be clear, my comment wasn't in response to yours. It just happened to follow yours in the thread.

Kim - I'm not one of those people who says other faiths are wrong. And the school I am sending DD isn't like that. If it was, I wouldn't have chosen it.

'But what about parties on a Saturday? If your religion says you can't do such stuff on those days, it's going to make things difficult and restrictive.

I know children who have missed out on "fun" and parties because their religion comes first. Many Muslim children.'

So what?

It is about freedom. People are free to bring their children up in their faiths and to learn their cultures. We don't live in a Big Brother state yet, where an enforced secularism forces everybody to lose their culture and identities and traditions. That is what real diversity is all about. People don't have to conform to an enforced secularism just because the state thinks that would be better. We are not in a communist country that wishes to wipe out religions and enforce atheism.

Kim .. What about some fundamentalist Christians (Baptists etc) who won't do anything other than go to church on a Sunday and won't engage in commerce on that day. Or the Seventh Day Adventists who observe the sabbath on Saturday too and espouse vegetarianism. Or the Mormon's who are reluctant to let their kids attend school beyond 10th standard and who always sat seperate from us at lunchtime with their long skirts/headscarves where I grew up. Lots of Christian organizations encourage group adherence and seperateness too (with all good things like taking care of each other and the bad things that come along with that too like shunning).

'But bringing a child up in a faith can isolate them from others if the rules of that faith are followed strictly.'

So what? Are you saying that therefore they should not bring them up in that faith then?

'I know children who have missed out on "fun" and parties because their religion comes first.'

For those people religion and culture and tradition is probably more important than what you value as "fun".

We live in a free country where people make different choices about what is important and what is fun.