Anti Semitism in the UK

[Oakmaiden]

This is in the news a lot at the moment.

I have never, to my knowledge, heard anyone make anti-Semitic remarks. Anti Islam, yes. Anti "them Polish people coming over here and taking our very badly paid jobs", yes. Anti Semitic, no. Am I just very lucky/ sheltered?

Kim147 - when you say "imposing" beliefs, isn't that what parents do? Every day I'm imposing my beliefs that the kids should try to eat healthily, brush their teeth, not stay up all night on the ipad, etc etc. I also "impose" my belief that they shouldn't eat pork sausages or watch telly on Saturdays. And many religions have restrictions on diet - Christianity is the exception rather than the rule.

Your idea that this leads to isolation and division is ridiculous. Is your suggested solution to bring my children up as secular Christians? By giving my child a faith that isn't the majority faith, I'm increasing diversity, not reducing it....

I'm not using state education. It's a private school.

I told you that she will mix with other children, by going to other groups and activities outside of school. We have neighbours with children she plays with. Why assume she will be separate?

It is disingenuous to claim that bringing her up within our faith and culture is robbing her of her right to choose and that no child is born with a faith or a religion. All parents make choices for their children and inculcate their own values as part of bringing them up. To make religion and the culture that goes along with that a 'special case' is unfair. You as part of a liberal, Western democracy that grew out of the European Enlightenment (a tradition that I share). This is not somehow 'value neutral'.

And, no, at a very young age I don't want her coming home and saying I'm Christian and celebrate Christmas simply by virtue of the fact that this has been the loudest, shiniest, most sparkly and exciting message she has received at school. At 4, 5 or 6 she is not exercising free will and rational choice. If, as an older child, she makes other choices, and as an adult, chooses to set up her home according to different values, I shall respect those choices.

I've told you my reasons for wanting a faith school. And all you gave said is that my thinking is wrong and that I am damaging my child and society. It's so easy to insist on the cultural melting pot when you are the majority culture.

As for the census, I didn't say there was no growth, but in demographic terms the very small amount of growth classifies it as static.

Kim147

Talking about faith schools I have just read this article on the BBC news website. Church of England Vicar blames 9/11 on Israel www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31052648 This struck a chord with me because although I am not a practicing Jew but I was quite taken aback last year when I met a young Catholic woman who attended a Catholic school and told me she was actively taught to hate Jews.

All faith schools in my opinion are restrictive in that they teach their children that they are better than others. These schools have no place in the 21st Century Britain.

So when you say 'in this country we try to accommodate people from different religions' I would say teaching hate is far more restrictive than dietary laws.

Why does a faith school, by definition and completely independently of the content or quality of the education, teach the children that they are 'better'? By that logic, a non-faith school imparts the message that no faith is better.

And the reality for many Jews in UK Jewish communities is that they are living in dire poverty. This is never reported in the media or discussed rationally in the Jewish newspapers. There always remains the illusion of prosperity and homogeneity. The last social issue I read about in a Jewish paper was in the 1980's when Rabbi's were trying to figure out if blue smarties are kosher.

Many Jews cannot afford to eat kosher food because it is so expensive and the effect of this is to alienate Jewish people especially children from their faith. The ideal in the community remains, to have two prosperous Jewish parents and all the trappings and those who don't are ostracised and never get heard.

Of course this applies to all communities and they are all doing their children a disservice by teaching difference and hate.

Yeah. Poverty is a big problem. Especially amongst certain strands of the community. There is a lot of charitable work that goes on within the community to try to alleviate it. I really don't think that wealth is idealised in the community the way you say it is, though. Where it is, I believe this is to do with other factorsh, and that these factors are shared by the surrounding non-jewish population.

I know what you mean about 'blue smarties'. But we really do care about deeper and wider issues than the minutiae of ritual observance.

Kim - at my DC's school, they learn about other faiths in RE. They are also twinned with a local Islamic school, and have a penfriends whom they write to. They don't really discuss LGBT issues, as it's a primary school. If you were a fly on the wall, you wouldn't pick up much...

It seems that I, as someone of a faith who will send her child to a faith school, am required to prove my interfaith / diversity / integration credentials in a way that someone of no particular faith and who sends their child to a non-faith school does not.

Re faith schools, they don't by any means have to teach that the adherents of the relevant faith are 'better'. Most of my DC emerged from a C of E primary school with a fair grounding of ideas from the Bible (which, let's face it, underlie quite a lot of British culture - terms like 'David and Goliath' and 'as you sow so shall you reap', for example) but with no Christian faith at all. They all have very sharp social consciences (something the school was keen on*), and one is active in the LBTG group at school. So although DH - a vocal atheist - objected at the start to their going to a C of E school, he hasn't said a word about it for years. They learned a lot about other religions and came out well-rounded characters.

This is all rather off the topic, but I wanted to make the point that faith schools are not necessarily sinks of bigotry.

Caffe and heart, thanks for the back up - I did wonder for a moment if I had lost the plot.

*And no, I am NOT saying that only faith schools can impart this kind of thing.

Cardonomonginger

Yes, I was on the receiving end of these charitable organisations in the Jewish community in the 1950's and 1960's The Jews Benevolent Society to name but one. As a six year old child trying to get money for some food for my diabetic mother. On each occasion I was asked to prove that I was Jewish even though they knew who I was and my home circumstances.

In the 1970's when I was a vulnerable young adult (because of the way I had been treated previously) I asked the Director of the Jewish Social Services a Mr David Lewis if I could borrow some money because I was nearly destitute. He was aware of my past and asked me what I would do for £5.

Last year I was contacted by the Jewish Federation because I had written about the relentless sexual abuse I had experienced in the Jewish community and it had been picked up by the Jewish papers. I was visited by a Senior Social Workers who told me they wanted to record my account so it could be investigated by an outside source. During the interview I was mocked, laughed at and told that the sexual abuse was my perception. I put this in the hands of the police.

These issues are major problems for all communities and sadly all communities brush them under the carpet and it's always the children who suffer most.

It's a myth that Jews take care of their own and the sad fact for me is that at a time when anti Semitism is on the rise many Jews will be suffering the fear of poverty, rejection and racial hatred.

Back to the OP I don't know why you would want to go back to Israel as I would have thought you would be at more personal risk?

Jane - I am so, so sorry.

Breaking - that's a good question! I think everyone has a red line. Mine would be where there is an ongoing threat to my life. So if I was Parisian, that line may have been crossed. Here, where there isn't such an ongoing threat, it would be more where the police or government no longer took hate crimes against Jews seriously, or where laws were deliberately disadvantageous to Jews. That's all massively unlikely. However, the fact that I have had this conversation with myself (as have most of my friends) is, I think, significant.

The wish to leave is not always synonymous with the wish to go to Israel. Often, it is. For me, it wouldn't be (unless it was so bad everywhere else!!).

I am deeply disturbed by many of the comments on this thread.

I am Jewish and proud to be.

If anti-semitism in the UK did not occur then why do I have to tell my boys when they go out to wear baseball caps to cover their heads rather than the traditional skull caps?

Why can I not congegrate outside with my friends after synagogue services (on the advice of the police) because we are seen as a potential target?

Why do the nursery children in the Jewish school where I teach have to practice driils where they are taught to lie still on the floor under tables if an alarm is sounded?

Why are our youth clubs, schools and synagoues protected by fences and secutity guards?

Why do our Rabbis often require a police escort when they walk to and from synagogue?

Why do I constantly get told 'you dont look Jewish' 'i didnt think Jewish people did that' etc etc.

There are only 250,000 Jews in the UK, many of whom are concentrated in small geographic areas. Many people in the UK have never met anybody Jewish and many of their ideas are based on stereotypes.

I am not saying that it is only the Jews who are subject to racism or anti-religious feelings but please don't reduce the impact that anti-semitism has by saying that other groups are also subject to abuse.

kim147
A lot of towns have interfaith groups which are trying to do work improve relationships and build tolerance. It is far from easy as some ethnic groups are simply not interested in mixing with people outside their group.

Incidently the interfaith group I have been to recently had three Jewish people attend. (Two orthodox jews and one liberal jew). There were no muslim people or humanists representatives at the group whatsoever. There were representatives from christians, hindus, hari kristnas, druids, ba'hais, buddists and some minor religions I had never heard of. Everyone there wanted to look at ways of stamping out hate and intolerance.

A massive problem is that the type of people who choose to attend an interfaith event are not the type of people who need to learn religous tolerance. I feel that there needs to be more work in schools.

glasshouses
Please carry on being proud to be Jewish. I am sorry that your community still suffers from anti semitism.

Whenever you have economic or other turmoil, people turn on the Jews, whether or not there are any in the vicinity
Really? Does that happen in this country?
It seems the people being turned on at the moment are people on benefits.

Kim, throughout this thread - about anti-semitism in the UK - you have wanted to talk about other discrimination. I too think its very, very important to talk about other isms - however, it feels to me like you are determined to close down the talk about anti-semitism - instead of opening it up.

I was surprised on a thread about anti-semitism where people were sharing loads of heart-felt experiences that you then repeatedly asked 'where are examples of anti-semitism'? And I'm really surprised that you don't know that some people do deny it exists. You yourself felt the need to point out that the (silly) Jews get confused between anti-semitism and anti-Israel sometimes. Perhaps you could helpfully explain that to the families of the murder victims in France?

kim147 whilst i wouldn't send dd to a faith school (she is jewish on my side) as i want her to mix with everyone, i must add that oddly enough there is a jewish school nearby that DOES have a mixture of children from other faiths. tbh i think this is more about the fact that there are no longer enough jews that live near by to fill it but either way i like the fact that when i drive past i see a right mix of kids from other faiths going into the school