Anti Semitism in the UK

[Oakmaiden]

This is in the news a lot at the moment.

I have never, to my knowledge, heard anyone make anti-Semitic remarks. Anti Islam, yes. Anti "them Polish people coming over here and taking our very badly paid jobs", yes. Anti Semitic, no. Am I just very lucky/ sheltered?

I don't think that is true Kim. People in the former Yugoslavia have said it was neighbour against neighbour. The Jews were highly integrated, including through marriage, in Germany. In Rwanda people killed people from the same villages.

Some groups in this country are tiny. There aren't very many Jewish people in the UK. There aren't that many Afro-Caribbean people in the UK. I happen to know Jewish people through social activities, but many people will not know any Jewish people socially because of the small number of Jewish people, regardless of what Jewish people do.

I don't know any British Afro-Caribbean people, because I am in a mostly Pakistani/Bangladeshi/White area. I don't hate Afro-Caribbean people. What are they meant to do? All know huge numbers of other people to prevent hatred? There are only a million of them. Does each of them have to make 60 friends from other ethnic groups? Does each Jewish person have to make 180 non Jewish friends?

So, antisemitism is (partly) my fault for being 'too Jewish' or Jewish in the 'wrong way' and for sending my child to a Jewish school?

I though we'd debunked that several pages back?

Jewish people have great parties ... I really don't understand what your problem is Kim.

Kim thinks that prejudice will vanish if people mix. But this is wrong.

For example on benefits, it is often among the working poor that the strongest support for benefit cuts is to be found and they know and mix with benefit claimants.

'But I think that it's much easier for people to be anti semitic if they don't know Jewish people'

But we are not going to ask Jewish people to change their traditions, cultures and faith practices just so that some people who are potentially antisemitic may then not be.

None of the groups mentioned in either Israel or Northern Ireland are tiny minorities either in those countries or globally. There is no threat of major cultural loss for those groups.

'there is an experiment'

But experiments are just that. almondcake gave some good examples

"In Rwanda people killed people from the same villages."

Yugoslavia was the same, it was mixed and integrated. That does not prevent prejudice. We can't adapt to prejudiced people or possible prejudiced people and change traditions and cultures and faiths just in case it prevents prejudice, because the experiment is unlikely to work.

'What ideas would you suggest then to reduce anti semitism?'

Tough sentencing. Tough laws. Deterrent.

I feel that a big mistake that we make is that we see racism/ relgious intolerance as purely as a white problem. We fail to acknowledge that different ethnic minorities can be awful to each other

Oh, how true ...

'Prejudice exists. How do you stop it?'

Law. Sentencing.

You can't eradicate prejudice, you have to manage it, control it and enforce laws when it is acted upon.

You can't stop people being prejudiced in thought because that is part of free thought. But you can stop them acting in a prejudiced fashion and breaking laws that discriminate against people.

You have to give tough sentences so that there is a deterrent.

It's strange that the antisemitism threads never end well.

I understand Kim's point about integration, it's logical but I don't think it's necessarily correct - Jews were very integrated into German life before the rise of the nazis.

I also think a lot of Jews have something in them that stops them integrating completely. I remember growing up and hearing older generations say that the Jews in Germany and across Europe got too comfortable, they were too integrated and let their guard down. This is obviously not the healthiest point of view, but it has definitely stayed with me.

We used to laugh as children. Why has x always got bread in her handbag? Why will she never throw away food? Or why does she need to shop every day. Only as an adult do I realise how terribly common that obsessive fear of starvation is amongst survivors.

These experiences stay with us as Jews. I have friends from all backgrounds. I went to religious and non religious schools. I now have members of my family from all different religions and celebrate their festivals or holy days with them. To an outsider I am very integrated. But I am still a Jew. I still eat only kosher food. I still will be lighting my candles this evening and I still circumcised my son.

I've been called many things on mumsnet including a child abuser so it's just the Jews' responsibility.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. If you want to reply feel free, I will read but I won't post anymore.

There is a series of talks on Youtube about a thing called syndrome E - about how otherwise empathetic people lose empathy for out groups. It is based in part on neurobiology, and it includes a set of practical, evidence based suggestions of how to increase empathy for those groups. I think it is worth watching not just in terms of society as a whole, but also as an individual or in the traits we encourage in our own children. I use it all the time when I feel myself losing empathy.

m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLf6Ydh3ke3A_q7jqQMznAHCJ8l4_nYMLe

If that link does not work, it is On IQsquared and the speaker is David Eagleman.

Kim - I really agree that knowing others can only help. Really I do. It is an important part of what my synagogue does and it is an important and deeply-held value that I will teach DD.

But the problem is, that you are also saying that in order for people to know me, and vice versa, I need to change the way in which I am Jewish and the way in which I teach my daughter about her culture.

OP, I think I you are being disingenuous to suggest that all you were doing was looking for education about the subject.

You used the words "Am I just very lucky/ sheltered?" And it's the "am I" question that's so loaded. Because presumably if anti semitism is really there, then yes, you must of course be lucky or sheltered not to have come across it. There's no question.

But you ask. Which means you are suggesting as a possibility that it "isn't" really there. That it's just another of those myths dreamt up by Jews who aren't really victims at all, not like Muslims or Eastern Europeans, just to make other people look bad.

That is what I find is unconsciously anti-Semitic and worrying about the wording and tone of your post. Why did you start from the point of challenging whether it really exists, just because you've never experienced it - especially when, as you say, you are not Jewish and live in an area where hardly any of the population is Jewish?

Why would you not start from a perspective of "this is worrying, I haven't experienced it but can those that have tell me their stories"? It's the very suggestion that maybe it isn't happening at all that's upsetting and seems to me to be a perfect demonstration of the way liberal folk are somehow normalising and internalising anti-Semitism. Once again.

Wasn't it bad enough last time around?

I'm not Jewish myself, btw. But very concerned indeed about trends like this.

Kim - so you are saying that. That I need to be bit less Jewish about stuff. That's not on.