Anti Semitism in the UK

[Oakmaiden]

This is in the news a lot at the moment.

I have never, to my knowledge, heard anyone make anti-Semitic remarks. Anti Islam, yes. Anti "them Polish people coming over here and taking our very badly paid jobs", yes. Anti Semitic, no. Am I just very lucky/ sheltered?

But MrsSquirrel, the idea that hatred started only with latter-day Zionism is the point in question here. And it's either deliberately disingenuous or breathtakingly self-delusional. Take your pick.

MrsSquirrel That is certainly true. But if we go back to the very origins of Islam...Mohammed...we can see where Islamic anti-semitism stems from. The doctrines of Islam themselves are hateful towards Jewish people. Mohammed took very grave exception to the fact that Judaism didn't accept him as "the prophet".

It's right there in black and white, totally undeniable.

But, of course, Muslims are human beings with different beliefs and different motivations like anyone else. So we cannot say, "It's the fault of Muslims".

But we most certainly can say that it is the fault of Islam and those particular Muslims that have bought into that aspect of the doctrines.

Islam has an awful lot to answer for.

there are plenty of israeli jews and israeli muslims that still live happily side by side. as i mentioned earlier, when i lived in israel i knew and was friendly with alot of arab israelis. i have a close friend who lives in israel now and has about half in half friends. she is a teacher (teaches english) and half of her class are arab israelis. she said that they have equal rights as everyone else and live well with each other, people don't seem so hung up about religion which makes sense as they are very similar in culture/appearance etc, just as it should be....living well together, i don't mean we all have to look the same.....

Boggled by some of the comments on this thread.

To paraphrase Moniker: Antisemitism is due to the actions of Israel. Well, that's breathtakingly ignorant. And splendidly illogical: it's like saying, 'All anti-Chinese prejudice, ever, is due entirely to the actions of China in Tibet in the last 50 years'. Sometimes MN stretches my brain in peculiar ways.

To paraphrase Cocoayan: Muslims were never nasty to the Jews until Zionism reared its hideous head.
Two seconds on the Webz and I found this:
"At various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews."
Besides, I fail to see how the Jews in Arab lands - many of whom hadn't much of an idea about political Zionism anyway - were in any way responsible for what happened.

This sort of stuff makes my brain ache.

Cocoayan: Muslims were never nasty to the Jews until Zionism reared its hideous head

That is not what I said, Meh. It is easy to win an argument by changing what the other person said to suit your own purposes.

Personally I do not confuse Judaism with Zionism. Some the most outstanding anti-Zionists I know are Jews and some of the most fervent Zionists are Christians and Atheists. I do hate Zionism with all my heart though.

You clearly said, Coyoacan that Jewish and Muslim people lived peacefully side by side throughout history until the Zionist invasion of Palestine.

And that is absolute bollocks.

Can I offer you back the advice you offered me? Don't talk about things you know nothing about.

The Jews have been persecuted in almost every European country. England has a disgusting history of appalling behaviour towards Jews. Part of the reason Jews are scattered across the earth is their desperate attempts to avoid persecution. Jews fled the Middle East to get away from persecution from muslms.

Personally I have not witnessed anti Semitic behaviour in real life, but that does not mean it does not exist.

True enough Kim147, but can you point us towards any Catholics in this country today who feal real fear due to a resurgence of hatred and the threat of violence and are thinking of leaving?

Jews (and Christians) lived very peacefully in Muslim countries for centuries ..... As long as they paid up their protection money

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Anti semitism definitely still occurs, I grew up in a Northern mining town, which I doubt had many Jewish inhabitants. Even then people used the term "he jew'd me", to mean "he'd tried to cheat me".

Luckily I had parents that always spoke up when they heard racism (I consider anti semitism a form of racism).

The Niemöller poem was drilled into me from a young age, and I think it applies to everyone.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

But the question was Kim about hatred and threats of violence to such a degree that they are thinking of leaving? No one is denying that religious divides still exist. And it's a true outrage that these divides are most evident when it comes to children.

Our Jewish population, here in the UK, is growing - not massively, but it is growing. Mainly because of people fleeing hatred and persecution in countries like France.

And, it seems, as the population grows, so does the incidence of anti-semitic violence and prejudice. Which suggests that many people who were hoping this country would be a safe haven have arrived to find more of the same.

Which is a national disgrace.

The population is not growing actually. It is largely static - census 2011 shows only a very small increase over 2001 numbers. There is growth in the ultra-orthodox populations (mainly areas in North London, Manchester and Gateshead). The rest of the Jewish population (secular, other 'varieties' of religious observance other than ultra-orthodox) is ageing and shrinking.

Ah, OK...shall take your word for that. I suppose it would even out. I was just thinking about various articles I've read recently about large numbers of European Jewish people coming to live here. Bad maths to assume that meant the population was automatically growing. Apologies.

But my basic point remains, I think. Flee anti-semitism and come to a country where anti-semitism is on the rise. How awful.

Kim

I agree regarding faith schools. That's a start.

I think that, regarding attacks on Muslims, it's often the case that they feel unable to report it to the police so there needs to be a safe way for them to do that, and the police need to find a way to instil trust. Prison sentences for anyone convicted should be significant.

I think social intolerance will help - pointing out and highlighting racism wherever we find it...online or in real life. As long as we remember what "racism" actually means, and don't lay into the wrong people.

And finally, I think moderate Muslims need to be heard more. I believe there are significantly more of them than there are the intolerant nutters so we should be hearing them roaring their disapproval. We do hear from them, but not enough IMO. That could be for many reasons - not least of which is hatred from within their own communities. We need to be aware of that and supportive when we need to be.

My bottom line is rather unrealistic I know...but giving up the mythical superstitions would do marvellous things for world peace. I live in hope.

I think faith schools is a red herring. Banning faith schools and making children mix will only result in a 'good mix' in areas where you have large enough numbers of the different groups. Certainly wouldn't do much for anti-semitism - we've already established that it exists where there are no/few Jews (both in the UK and globally).

I see GOOD and RESPECTFUL education as necessary. I believe this can be achieved within a faith school setting.

DD will be going to a Jewish school, certainly for infant and primary. I don't want her to be one of the few children who can't go to the birthday parties on Saturday and so gets left out. I don't want her to have to take a packed lunch to school because she can't eat the school lunches. I don't want her to not be able to go to whatever non-kosher restaurant/cafe someone is having a party in, and be left out. I want her to come home having learnt songs about Purim or Channukah, or whatever Jewish festival is coming up. I want her to be taught about other faiths as part of a lesson, but not in a way that it becomes part of her identity. She's at a non-Jewish nursery at the moment, and it is bloody hard competing with Christmas and the tree and Santa and Rudolph. It's a losing battle and, understandably she gets upset.

The argument that 'she can get all this at home' just doesn't wash with me. Apart from the danger of being socially isolated that education at home cannot do anything about, as I have said you can't compete with the excitement of e.g. Christmas, especially when it is the dominant culture and is all around you. Lastly, I don't want her to have to give up her time after school or on Sundays to go to Cheder (Jewish Sunday School). I want her to be playing, socialising (that will include going to activities and clubs where she will meet children of other faiths and ethnicities), doing her homework. Just doing normal kid stuff.

Well, actually she can learn everything about your religion at home. I see no reason why you should be using state education to reinforce your personal beliefs.

There should be no such thing as a faith school for the simple reason that children have no faith and have no religion.

Nothing respectful whatsoever about the concept of a faith school since, by definition, it disrespects the rights of children to think freely and jndependently and divides them up based on the thought processes and choices of their parents.

When it comes to Saturday birthday parties and what she eats for lunch how about letting her choose rather than you doing it for her?

Shocking idea, eh?

Oh, and by the way...the 2011 census showed that the Jewish population has actually increased slightly.

The 2011 census does not cover recent events though.

I think it's time to shout STOP. I now tolerate very, very few religious aspects of peoples lives. I certainly do not believe they have a right to be respected if they hold opinions that incite hatred of any groups.

Any belief or hatred of others should be seen for what it is; a bolstered failure in the individual to have developed emotionally. I include all intolerance in that.