Anti Semitism in the UK

[Oakmaiden]

This is in the news a lot at the moment.

I have never, to my knowledge, heard anyone make anti-Semitic remarks. Anti Islam, yes. Anti "them Polish people coming over here and taking our very badly paid jobs", yes. Anti Semitic, no. Am I just very lucky/ sheltered?

I do not mean to attack you personally noddyholder but this is a world where there are people who actually say the holocaust never happened so when you even suggest things are overblown or made up you give people like that ammunition and you might not have meant to do that but your posts and others' and the OP's allow that possibility in the framing of the question

Don't agree at all.

I have never seen someone aborting a baby because is female, so I am sure that never happens even when the media say it is done in certain countries.

What do you think of that noddy?

And the idea even in general that media reports of anti-anything has the effect of fueling it is preposterous.

Was it widespread coverage in the press of the fate of the Jews, Roma, and other 'untermenschen' that spurred the Nazis on?

I think you will find that it was when the clear broadcasting of intentions and even the odd report of the crimes was met with almost complete silence that they were encouraged. And I think you will find that it is silence, and the lack of curiosity born of callousness, that encourages racism and what happened in the Third Reich.

As I mentioned upthread, Zionism was founded in the context of rampant and growing anti-Semitism all over the old empires of Europe and in the United States. Zionists had recognised that traditional Jewish meekness in the face of hatred had not been successful and that assimilation had not been a guarantee of acceptance. They had recognised that scattered, disorganised Jewish communities within separate empires dealing piecemeal with anti-Semitism would never succeed. Zionists had also recognised that 'progress' had not changed society and that the same old anti-Semitic feeling would always be there. Zionists made no apology for the lack of meekness or for the fledgling political cohesiveness or for the aim of the movement -- the establishment of the state of Israel. The Zionists first fought for independence from Britain, who had promised the state to what it considered 'representatives of world Jewry' (a war whose tactics were modeled on the Irish War of Independence.) By the time Israel was twenty years old it had fought three additional wars against enemies on all sides whose aim it was to wipe the state off the map, with the question of the fate of the citizens left to the imagination.

Do media reports of schoolyard bullying mean more bullying?

I don't know anyone in real life who is anti-Semitic. I know plenty of people who are anti-Zionism. There's a clear difference between them and it has been high up on the Zionist agenda to mix the two.

This is the statement you agreed with Noddy. Hardly anyone in real life is anti-semitic but there is a zionist agenda to get you to think that they are.

Absolutely staggering that you would come on a thread where people are relating all their horrible experiences on the back of 4 murdered in France, (which of course comes after the dead at the school and the museum) all for being Jewish and tell people that, oh actually, you silly lot, it is not anti semitism but you are falling victim of a Zionist agenda that is mixing the two.

Un fucking believable.

But I have repeatedly said I don't know anyone who is! I am not denying they exist I just don't know any myself.

But eugene that is what I have been saying I haven't seen/heard it but know it exists??

You actually think people who go around saying that 'it's high up on the zionist agenda to mix the two' don't have an issue with Jewish people? Really?

Its the phrase you agreed with. What did you mean by it?

Why don't you ask your friends if they have experienced anti-semitism. If they say yes, please explain to them that a. it's over-reported in the media. b. its not anti-semitism but anti-zionism and they are confused by the zionist agenda.

I didn't say that I said I agreed that I didn't know anyone anti semitic and I stand by that I don't. I will ask them esp after this thread but I said earlier I am surprised that they haven't expressed it after reading this. I am wondering why maybe they don't feel it or maybe they do and don't say. I have no idea that is why I posted on here I have read it all and said I believe every last person who has experienced it. I was brought up in Northern Ireland in the 70s and when I moved to the UK lots of people who had been to ireland on holiday etc had no idea what we had experienced growing up. It doesn't mean it didn't happen or wasn't happening they just had never seen it Thats is all

I was discussing this thread and the opinions on it over Shabbat lunch yesterday with a group of friends, all Jewish. This is what we feel about anti-Semitism.

1. Overwhelmingly, anti-Semitism is presented as a problem for Jews to solve. We need to modify our behaviour, our thinking, or way of being in order not to provoke. People who advance this position as being both logical and completely reasonable would never dare to say of Black people that the racism they experience is their problem to solve. Nor (on MN in any case) would they say of women that the sexism, including violent crimes, is their problem.

1. The West, including Britain, likes its Jews to be physically weak, deferent, dependent, and grateful. When we are not, there is a big problem. Jews are permitted to be ‘charmingly ethnic’ according to pre-determined definitions of what is and is not acceptable behaviour. We are not permitted to make these decisions ourselves – others should do this for us. The basic definition of acceptable behaviour is that we are not ‘too Jewish’ and certainly not Jewish in the ‘wrong way’. Self-definition in this regard is absolutely forbidden. Where we do go outside the limits of acceptability, we are told that it is not necessary, we are mistaken, we are creating problems, we are alienating others (who are more important than us).

1. There are ‘good’ Jews and ‘bad’ Jews. ‘Good’ Jews are the ones that stay within the accepted boundaries of religious and cultural expression. ‘Good’ Jews are anti-Zionist. ‘Bad’ Jews flout the ‘rules’ imposed on them as to what is accepted behaviour. They have the temerity to self define. ‘Bad’ Jews are Zionist. Anti-Semitic acts against ‘bad’ Jews are at best unfortunate coupled with an almighty BUT (followed by a description of why it was still understandable). At worse violence against ‘bad’ Jews is correct and deserved. Violence against ‘good’ Jews is all the fault of ‘bad’ Jews. The perpetrators of said violence are pretty much blameless – at worst they were ‘confused’. The problem is that they picked the wrong sort of Jew, not that they attacked a Jew in the first place.

1. The utter demonization of Israel and visceral hatred of the country is fuelled by several things. Firstly, the existence of Israel and Jewish Israelis goes against the rule that Jews should be physically weak, deferent, dependent and grateful. We have a country (again), and this puts us on a level footing with the rest of the world. Secondly, there is post-Colonial guilt. Hatred for Israel is a way to work out anger and guilt in a way that doesn’t actually require anyone to go and change any of the mess caused by their own country’s colonial endeavours. Of course, this conveniently ignores the fact that the majority of Jewish Israelis are not actually white or of European Ashkenazi ethnicity. It also conveniently ignores the long standing ties that many Jewish Israeli communities have to that land, going back many centuries. Thirdly comes post-Holocaust guilt. This is an interesting one. On the one hand we have the co-opting of Holocaust imagery and Nazi iconography in a way that casts the Palestinians as the true victims and turns Jewish Israelis into those who have picked up the torch that Hitler dropped. This makes it easier to deal with the Holocaust – oh look, the Jews actually are evil, so maybe trying to exterminate them wasn’t all that bad. This is also an example of the ‘good’ Jew / ‘bad’ Jew dichotomy: the ‘good’ Jews were the ones who passively went to their deaths, the ‘bad’ Jews are the ones who are strong, self-define, and refuse to just go to their deaths. (With an interesting twist that because the Palestinians are now the ultimate victims according to this Holocaust/Nazi narrative, there actually are no ‘good’ Jews anymore, only ‘bad’ ones.) Post-Holocaust guilt also involves fear of the victim. Except the victim now has a country and an army: fear of the victim means that they need to be crushed all the more decisively now.

A couple of us felt that, at bottom, anti-Semitism is there because the world can’t stand it that we didn’t all die or convert/assimilate. Our physical existence is a continuing reproach to those who have sought to annihilate us physically. Our continuing existence as JEWS, i.e. not as anything else, is a continuing kick in the teeth for the competing beliefs that sought to annihilate us ideologically.

For background: We are all educated, thoughtful people. We all live in and embrace the modern world. We all contribute to wider society.

Why would you say I agree with that Hyper, if you didn't agree with the bulk of what she said.

I don't really understand how you can say you don't know anyone who is anti-Semitic either. They don't all wear swastikas you know. Some of them are actually quite nice. I bet that vicar who's going on about 9-11 being the Jews is usually a lovely fellow. Many of them don't even think they are racist - and then they come out with some crap about 'zionist agendas etc etc' and give you quite a shock.

People don't generally say face to face to people who are not Jews that they have experienced anti-Semitism, for several reasons.
1 - they see it as part of the wallpaper. It is something they have learned to live with.
2 - they do not want to overtly identify themselves as Jewish for fear of being mistaken for that shadowy bogeyman, the Zionist, or to have to listen to someone saying 'you're ok, it's just the Zionists I can't stand'..
3 - they do not wish to overtly identify themselves as Jewish for fear of inviting anti-Semitism.

Irish people in London in the 70s only talked among themselves about discrimination, the cold shoulder, and remarks directed at them. This was due to fear. To the outside world they just got on with life. Same goes for black people in the US, who get on with life and rarely if ever discuss prejudice with people who are not black. Nobody wants to make waves and disturb the connections they have managed to make.

Irish immigrants to the US in recent times hear a lot of 'You're ok, it's the Mexicans who cause problems'. Leaves a really bad taste in the mouth to be welcomed into the club.

Because I doubt anyone would come right out with it like most bigots! I don't know any that doesn't mean there aren't any. I agreed with her because she said what I had been saying re 'not knowing'. I can agree with some and not the bulk of what someone says You want a row I am not going to give you one

Great post, cardamom. Lots to think about.

Noddyholder I don't know anyone who is racist but that certainly doesn't mean that nobody is racist.

I can tell you that I have experienced overt anti-semitism on many occasions. I was shot at with lead pellets whilst talking to my friends outside a synagogue when I was a teenager, I have had abuse shouted at me walking down the street, my boys cannot go out with skull caps on but rather have to wear baseball caps, Kosher food was trashed on shelves in my local supermarket because it was thought to have been produced in Israel.

And yet, I am proud to be both Jewish and British. I think we are lucky to live in a country , that for the most part, still has many tolerant people. I certainly don't feel unsafe here, but there has been a definite increase in the amount of abuse Jews are suffering and think that it is not an issue that should be ignored or minimised

mathanxiety exactly I have said that I don't know why they haven't said it. You have at least explained it and I can see that is exactly why they may not And I plan to ask now.

Why is everyone misquoting me? I know there are anti semites but I don't know any WHy can't I say that without being told I have said it doesn't exist?

Glasshouses I don't know anyone who is anti semitic but that doesn't meant there aren't anti semitics Why is what you say ok and me not! Its the same ?

It is the same dynamic that silences women who are feminists and keeps women from bringing up certain topics unless they are sure of the reception those topics will receive.

There are women, and then there are those unacceptable women, the Feminists.

I don't want a row. I like your posts normally, so I was irked that you would agree with a blatantly anti-semitic post.

That is what I wonder Why the people I KNOW haven't mentioned it and if they talk about it to other jews but feel they can't otherwise.

Noddy, I don't think you really understood what I said. Maybe you missed the reference to fear? Fear is very important. Fear is not something that arises in a vacuum. Fear of showing your identity and airing your concerns arises in a hostile environment, and it expresses itself to those who are part of that environment as silence. The silence should not be interpreted as anything but fear.

Thanks math well explained and without using me as target practice

No I absolutely get it I am thinking of these friends now and wondering if they are in that category if as you say it is ingrained and part of who they are because of what they have experienced but never voiced (to me)