Anti Semitism in the UK

[Oakmaiden]

This is in the news a lot at the moment.

I have never, to my knowledge, heard anyone make anti-Semitic remarks. Anti Islam, yes. Anti "them Polish people coming over here and taking our very badly paid jobs", yes. Anti Semitic, no. Am I just very lucky/ sheltered?

CaffeeLatteIceCream and Kim -- I agree with Cardamomginger that responsible and respectful faith schools do no harm. By the same token I like secular schools if they are completely secular with none of the typical British fudging, with Hallowe'en, Christmas trees, etc.

However -- bringing up a child in a certain faith doesn't mean just teaching them about it. They could look up wikipedia for that. There is an element of living the holidays, observing rituals, and knowing that you are part of a wider community with the same beliefs that cannot be replicated in a secular school. I am RC and sent my DCs to a RC elementary school for these reasons (and even there I found that the hoopla surrounding Santa Claus put the religious element of Christmas in danger of being forgotten.)

The DCs went to a public and secular high school where no seasonal acknowledgement of secular or religious holidays was ever made, and there was no reference to religion except in the context of history and social science offerings. This made it much easier for all to focus on encountering each other as individuals. If secular means Christmas trees and RE then forget it, as far as I am concerned.

CaffeLatteIceCream:
There should be no such thing as a faith school for the simple reason that children have no faith and have no religion.
Parents in certain religious faiths take upon themselves a commitment to transmit their faith to their children. They understand that as their children grow they may make decisions about their religious practice and form their own beliefs, but part of transmitting that faith is finding an environment where that may best be done and where children are not left feeling that their family are a bunch of oddities for holding a certain set of beliefs. Parents may also be wary of teachers who may or may not understand what they are talking about teaching their children about their particular religion and children coming home conflicted.

Nothing respectful whatsoever about the concept of a faith school since, by definition, it disrespects the rights of children to think freely and independently and divides them up based on the thought processes and choices of their parents.
Schools force children to do a lot of things against their will - test taking, wearing a uniform, doing PE on cold, wet days. They must take maths even if they hate it, and they are taught what and how to think when it comes to fractions and algebra and calculus. History is an area where children are fed a government approved line in just about every single state on earth where there is an education system. Does all of that constitute disrespect of their alleged right to think freely? Again, parents in certain faiths take upon themselves the responsibility to transmit their faith to their children. If you believe this involves forbidding the slightest whiff of independent thought, I invite you to do a little research.

When it comes to Saturday birthday parties and what she eats for lunch how about letting her choose rather than you doing it for her?
Shocking idea, eh?

It is both shocking and actually rather ignorant. What did you learn in RE? Certainly no understanding of or respect for the basic premise that guides parents of certain faiths when it comes to how they bring up their children, or the idea that for many, faith is a lived experience that often involves observation of a sabbath and other elements, and not one that is taught from a book.

So how do we tackle racism and intolerance?
We start with the realisation that the problem is not that other people are different.
The problem is that difference is seen as a problem.

Kim:
if they go to a Jewish faith school - well, yes, they are like the other children - in that the food is Kosher, religious events are covered and they can go to parties and eat the correct food.

But then your child won't mix with other children. They'll be seen as different.

You are Jewish. You follow your faith. You are imposing your beliefs on food, parties etc on your DC.

But then your child won't mix with other children. They'll be seen as different.

And what exactly is the problem with being seen as different, Kim?

Scratch the surface a teeny little bit and we see Moniker's wish for more blending in.

It's your choice to send them to a faith school. But I think that giving a child a faith (especially one which is restrictive on diet and when you can do things) is limiting - and separation from others by faith leads to division and isolation.

By whom? Division and isolation are not the only elements that arise from 'separation by faith'. These are negative consequences chosen by others.

Why shouldn't people choose difference?

Are you saying people need to blend in more?
Be less visible?
Be less visibly different?

Yes, and that is why a Jewish parent who does not wish to see her child marked out by 'the others' sends the child to a Jewish school. Many Jewish parents who wish their children to never have the experience of 'us and them' in daily life finds a Jewish world to inhabit until the children are old enough to stand on their own feet.

In a country like Britain which though 'post-Christian' still observes an overwhelmingly Christian public calendar the Jewish child from an observant family would always be the child left out of Saturday events, always be the child not eating the sausage rolls, always be the child wondering if it would be the done thing to invite friends over for a Sunday party. This is the distinct possibility that a parent who sends her child to Jewish school seeks to guard against. Same with Catholics sending a child to a Catholic school knowing their children are not going to run into rude and ignorant flak about 'bells and smells' and 'praying to statues' and remarks about communion.

You are advocating more blending on the part of those who have a different culture, just as Moniker did but disguised as concern for the child. A child is only going to feel 'different' if someone else chooses to mark him out and make something negative out of it. Instead of decrying the marking out you suggest less 'standing out'.. The answer is not for Jews to ditch observant Judaism, but to stop other people trying to use it to make someone feel inferior or odd or excluded for exercising their free choice.

If we are going to try to eliminate difference by more blending and less standing out, why don't we ditch those elements that make us 'not Jews' and blend more toward Judaism, begin observing a Saturday Sabbath, and keep kosher?
Jews have been living in England longer than protestants have, after all.

kim I think you need to accept some humans are evil and stupid and we will never eradicate racism/prejudice because it is transmitted from generation to generation.

There are two types of antisemitism:

1. The right wing ones/white power/neo nazis, skin heads, etc.
2. Most muslims (most of them who haven't even met a jewish person).

Both think all jews have money, run the world, the press, know everything about everyone, deny the holocaust, etc.

Jewish people are sadly used to live with number 1 but not number 2

And the most stupid thing people say is this: (like some idiot said Milliband is not really British). Where the fuck should Milliband go? Israel? No, of course not, because it is an evil country, they (jewish people) stole the land (it was given by the British because of their own interests).

So, let's be honest? Where the fuck do they want to jewish people to live? Let's face it, what they really want it's their obliteration from the earth.

No more fucking: it is not antisemitism, it's anti zionism or bullshit like that. Lots of people use that as a cover, but very quickly you know it is really antisemitism.

Your argument about 'integrating' is flawed as many people said above. Holocaust (they were mostly assimilated jewish people, not the ones with the 'funny hats').

Remember for the nazis even if only your grandparents were jewish, you were jewish too.

When the racist/prejudiced people want to kill you, they won't give a fuck if you were a good honest, law abiding citizen, that's just a fact.

Also, to 'blend' yourself you need to be white. Not all jews are white. And not all white people are the same 'shade' of white. And this happens with other ethnicities here too, the good old: yes, you are British, but where are you REALLY from?

Agreed Eugened - As someone said on a 'Who do you think you are" programme; we're all mongrels in UK. I was born & brought up in rural Yorkshire but one great grandmother was German, and the other Irish. And looking at Danes when I was in Copenhagen, there is a lot of Danish Viking in my family history (common in Yorkshire I suspect). Many of my friends, growing up had similar fairly recent foreign ancestry. We all loved it - it made us feel more interesting or exotic.

i am not british by birth, by culture or through ancestry. I am not going to start pretending I am, or divorce myself of my culture so that british people feel better about themselves. who i am should disturb their lives not one iota

I am bemused by this famous british tolerance of and welcoming attitude towards those who are different for whatever reason - it seems to me it lasts just up until the moment people actualy, erm, do something different, like keep kosher or whatever

either this is a pluralistic society with room for all, as long as they harm none, or it isn't. This idea that you can be a jew provided you don't actually do anything jewish is bullshit

i think you can be as jewish etc as you like but remember not to isolate everyone who is not part of your same cultural or religious beliefs as so many people sadly do

Chibi, for many British people the tolerance goes well beyond 'the moment people actualy, erm, do something different, like keep kosher or whatever'.

Unfortunately, there are people in the UK - both white British and not - who are not tolerant of difference. The drift of this thread seems to be try and work out how we can change that. I wish it were a quick fix but sadly I don't think it will be - here or in any other country.

I am bemused by this famous british tolerance of and welcoming attitude towards those who are different for whatever reason - it seems to me it lasts just up until the moment people actualy, erm, do something different, like keep kosher or whatever

Utter rubbish.

To OP's original question, I have just seen that an anti-Semitic rally is being prepared in an area of London with a large Orthodox Jewish community. Not sure how to link on phone hackneycitizen.co.uk/2015/01/31/white-supremacists-announce-anti-semitic-rally-in-stamford-hill/

I just checked out (and reported) the Facebook page for the event which is filled with hatred, crude cartoons, images of an Orthodox Jewish man being kicked in the stomach with the caption "Take that Pedo (sic) Rabbi!".

It makes no sense.

Why go to such trouble?

Frightening and sickening.

Reported on ynet news: "We are demonstrating against the illegal and unlawful Jewish Shomrim Police that are enforcing talmudic law on British streets," says the protest's Facebook page

IF it's true about these "police" trying to impose some alternative law I'd certainly agree that should be dealt with - but not by some extremist group organising a deliberately provocative rally

It will be interesting to see if it's allowed to go ahead ...

It's not true. Of course it's not bloody true. Do you have any idea what Talmudic law even is?

They are a group of people trained by the met police in a similar way as neighbourhood watch might be to look for antisemitic crime in high risk areas. They came out visibly in the wake of the Paris murders and also offer protection mosques.

Talmudic law is not forced on anyone, British streets or otherwise. Ridiculous and mind blowingly offensive.

Yes I know what Talmudic law is, and that's why I put "IF it's true" with the "if" capitalised

It's also why I pondered whether it will be allowed to go ahead; I think we all know how the police would view such a demo if it was held in some other community areas, so it'll be interesting to see how they approach it when it's the jewish community who could be affected ...

Puzzle They are talking bullshit.

Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. That police group is paid by jews to protect themselves and they also protect mosques (they are attacked by the white supremacist scum). Someone I know used to live in a jewish area and she was grateful to them, they were in fact protecting her and she wasn't paying for them (she is not jewish ).

Villa, that rally appears to be the one-man crusade of the media hungry neo-nazi Joshua Bonehill, who has a long record of media shit-stirring and left the EDL as it wasn't anti-semitic enough. Any rally is likely to be a rally of one.

Astonishingly he was on the Conservative Party's official council candidates list until 2011!

What is this 'isolation' concern that many here seem concerned about?
i.e. Jews 'isolating themselves'?

After thousands of years of involuntary ghettoisation of Jews the idea of Jews isolating others is a remarkable thing to see.

How isolating is it, really, to have a dietary regime that is 'different'? How many people does everyone here know who are vegatarians, piscatorians, uvo-lactarians, vegans, or just plain finnicky eaters who hate curry/chips/burgers/you name it, and thus restrict their options when it comes to meals with friends, or children's parties. How many people have food allergies or sensitivities? How many families have children who can't come to parties on weekends because they spend both days at various sports or recitals or lessons or practices? Or children who have to spend weekends with an out of town non-custodial parent so parties and socialising with friends are out? Or children whose parents work weekends and they spend their time with grandparents who don't drive or are jealous of the time they spend with them...

I'm sure there are more examples of people unable to conduct their relationships with you on exactly the terms you want, but it is apparently only those Jews whose choice it is to follow their religion who are unacceptable, and only their children who will suffer from having to spend Friday night and Saturday observing what their religion asks of them, in their homes, eating a meal with their family and/or in a synagogue.

There is a strong element of anti-organised religion in evidence here of course, but I strongly suspect a decision by Christians to reserve Sunday for church would be considered more acceptable because this is the cultural norm even in a country where the majority do not attend a church.

TheTravellingLemon -- not to mention ignorant and shameless

Well said Mathanxiety!

Almost everyone I know has something that they can't or don't eat! Me, I don't eat meat or seafood when I'm out. My nod to kosher food rules, but am much stricter at home.

I don't find it isolating as most restaurants have some kind of veggie or fish option. Used to be more difficult years ago but now it's easy in the UK.

My kids have chosen to eat differently now they are adults. That's fine too.

I didn't know that Break. I've never heard of him. Judging from the event Facebook page, he's got a posse that shares his views but hopefully you're right that there will only be a few of them if the "rally" happens. The police may well shut it down as I'm sure they've prevented EDL marches from happening before.

Puzzledandpissefoff - you know what Talmudic law is? Really? I don't, and I've been going to talks on Judaism for over 20 years. Perhaps you could enlighten me. Is it just a scarier form of normal Jewish law, which is based on a combination of the Talmud (which is the oral law) and the bible?

No I have never heard or encountered it either but there seems to be a huge media push atm to put it high on the agenda which fuels negative fire