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Anti Semitism in the UK

404 replies

Oakmaiden · 18/01/2015 18:51

This is in the news a lot at the moment.

I have never, to my knowledge, heard anyone make anti-Semitic remarks. Anti Islam, yes. Anti "them Polish people coming over here and taking our very badly paid jobs", yes. Anti Semitic, no. Am I just very lucky/ sheltered?

OP posts:
kim147 · 30/01/2015 13:19

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TalkingintheDark · 30/01/2015 13:21

And this seems as good a place as any to link to an amazing Muslim woman blogger Ive just come across via the Sunday Times,

iram ramzan

who makes the some very valid points about how the Jewish victims in the Paris events have been completely overlooked in the furore about Charlie Hebdo.

In fact, she makes very valid points about everything, IMO.

CaffeLatteIceCream · 30/01/2015 13:22

cardamomginger

Teaching a child about your faith is one thing. Teaching a child they THEY belong to a particular faith, shall be identified as part of that faith, were born into that faith and will observe all practices is quite another. You then compound it by sending her to a school specifically for people of that faith.

Faith is a thought process. A spectacularly bad one, as it happens, but a thought process nonetheless. It is the thought "I shall go ahead and just believe this because I want to".

You are free to do that. Your child, according to you, will do so whether she likes it or not. You are not only manipulating her life, you are manipulating her mind. Because she was born to you, you have taken it upon yourself to basically tell her what she thinks and what she believes.

How can you possibly, possibly justify this?

And, by the way, I am talking specifically to YOU based on your posts to me. I am not talking about all Jewish families, or even all religious families...because most of the ones I know do think the way you do, thank heavens.

Aggressive atheism? Do you mean..."This is what I believe. This is what other people believe. None of us really know for sure, so think about it and make up your own mind"? Is that what you're talking about? I have yet to meet a single atheist parent who ever says anything else.

The problem parents like you have with adopting that perfectly sensible attitude is that, given a real choice, 99% of thinking kids will not believe the claims of the Abrahamic religions because they are so stunningly stupid, banal and ridiculous. But what choice do you have but to get 'em while they're young?

Respect your child's mind and let her think for herself. A faith that's been shoehorned into her brain is not worth shit, is it? Strangely, I had the impression that the Jewish faith tended to agree with that POV. But, obviously that's not always the case.

SamG76 · 30/01/2015 13:31

Kim - missing out on "fun" and parties? Are you serious? Firstly, the DC's go to quite enough parties as it is. Second, understanding that they can't always have what they want is a vital life skill.

And it's not just adults. How much "fun" have I missed by not watching Saturday telly, or taking recreational drugs. Or eating at McD's? I don't know. Maybe a lot. And thing of all the one-night stands DH and I could have had if we didn't believe in marital fidelity!

kim147 · 30/01/2015 13:34

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SamG76 · 30/01/2015 13:37

CaffeLatte - your post to cardomom shows a total lack of knowledge of Judaism. It's about being part of a people - that's why there are loads of atheist and non-especially-believing Jews, even at our synagogue. How do you suggest we let the DC's think for themselves - are we back to the roasted pig in the fireplace idea? In the same way, I hope the kids learn from us how to behave decently to friends and family. They're not obliged to - when they grow up they can reject it completely, but it's not brainwashing....

SamG76 · 30/01/2015 13:42

Kim - my DC's go to plenty of parties with non-Jews, just not on Saturdays. It seems that we're damned either way, though. Either we send our children to non-Jewish schools, and then we get criticized because they miss out on lots of party "fun", or we send them to Jewish schools and get in trouble for not integrating enough.

cardamomginger · 30/01/2015 13:44

This is my last post, then I'm off because I have had enough and have better things to do.

Kim - I am critical of your statement that it is impossible for me to be both religiously observant (to my own standards and not your's or anyone else's) and immersed in my culture and part of the wider community. That is is impossible for me to teach my daughter about her culture and that it is her culture, and still educate her about other traditions and faiths such that she shows respect and interest in them. That it is impossible for me to send her to a faith school and still have her as part of the wider community, through activities that may be part of our synagogue or her school that are aimed at fostering links with other groups, or through my own initiatives via hobbies, socialising with neighbours. That it is impossible for me to be both rooted in my own tradition and culture and still meet others, whether that be through friendships made by chance, through hobbies and other activities, or through more formal processes of interfaith trialogue. I am critical because my lived experience is to be exactly that person. To be the person who stands up against racism and injustice. I am critical because you are telling me that I am part of the problem and not the solution.

I think there are measures (big and small) that can help make the world a nicer and better place and I seek to be someone who works towards that. But giving up or modifying our identities and how we present them to others in the world is not part of that. If I didn't keep shabbat, would that help? If I didn't keep kosher, would that help? If I had a Christmas tree, because it's just harmless and that's what everyone else does and it's no big deal really, would that help? It won't help, as 1930s Germany so adequately shows.

Judaism is a faith, but it is also a culture. It is not just a set of beliefs, it is very rooted in practice. Caffe - my daughter is Jewish. She was born to me, and I am Jewish, so she is. She can be proud of this and enjoy the things that make her so without being supremacist about it all. It's really not hard.

I am done now. I've said all there is for me to say.

claig · 30/01/2015 13:54

Well said, cardamomginger.

The problem is that some people wish to enforce one way on everyone else. They want everyone to be the "same". We are not all the same. People have different beliefs, different faiths or none at all, different cultures and different traditions.

There is no Tower of Babel one way with one language and one faith and one way of thinking. The world is diverse. People are different.

In a pluralist, free society we respect and acknowledge and maintain that difference and don't force people to abandon their traditions or faiths.

And we make sure that people are not discriminated against by making laws and enforcing them so that no one disadvantages anyone else.

We live with difference and have tolerance for difference, we don't seek to eliminate difference and make everyone believe the same thing. But we all obey one law which allows for that difference.

kim147 · 30/01/2015 14:23

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kim147 · 30/01/2015 14:27

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claig · 30/01/2015 14:41

'How do you stop it?'

There is no easy answer. But you don't do it by abandoning your own customs and faith and adopting Muslim customs.

You use education and moral teaching to promote tolerance and respect and you have tough laws that come down hard on anyone who does discriminate.

claig · 30/01/2015 14:55

There is a danger that in looking for easy solutions, the authorities end up being unfair to faith schools

"Ofsted is unfairly targeting Jewish schools because of a 'hodge-podge of Left-wing ideals', one of its inspectors has claimed.

Rabbi Nessanel Lieberman said the watchdog had an agenda to criticise the faith schools because they did not conform to its ideology.

The inspector, registered with Ofsted since 2009, said Jewish schools were increasingly falling foul of new rules on British values.

It comes after two Christian schools were downgraded after inspectors branded children intolerant for failing to give the right answers to questions about lesbians and Muslims.

In October, the Jewish Beis Yaakov secondary school for girls in Salford was also downgraded from good to inadequate and placed in special measures.

The school's management complained that pupils felt bullied by inspectors' questions about homosexuality and whether they had friends from other faiths.

A growing number of faith schools believe they are falling victim to the Government's drive for British values, devised to combat extremism."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2932176/Jewish-faith-schools-face-Left-wing-Ofsted-bias-Inspector-says-watchdog-criticises-not-conform-ideology.html

sourdrawers · 30/01/2015 15:04

Well said. good points. claig. This "You lot need to assimilate more" bollocks is really the last refuge of the bigoted ignoramus who can't be bothered to look into the roots of the problem. I think a lot of the comments on here are prompted by our headline-grabbing Prime Minister. Who claims we've been "passively tolerant of extremists" and "sleepwalking to segregation" etc, etc ..

I agree though, that it is about integration, that is : integrating new identities and accepting and appreciating that we have a collective identity. Do you think that Britishness means one thing?

Those that accuse Jews (for example) of segregating themselves from the rest of us tend to forget that historically when the a minority group (Jews, Blacks, Asians, Muslims etc) started moving to a certain area, the whites moved out. Then they get accused of Ghettoising.

JaneAHersey · 30/01/2015 15:19

From my experience faith schools have no positive role to play except to reinforce religious and racial stereotypes. The same applies to religion - the adoration of beings that do not exist while many people who are living are ignored and left to suffer.

claig · 30/01/2015 15:25

JaneHersey that is your opinion but others disagree and think that they teach a religious, ethical and moral code and continue centuries' old traditions and customs that unite people in a faith.

British values should really be all about accepting and allowing and respecting difference and different opinions and views and beliefs.

claig · 30/01/2015 15:27

As long as no one breaks the law.

SamG76 · 30/01/2015 15:29

JAH - you write very movingly of your experiences, and I am very sorry for you, but they're nothing to do with faith schools. The Jewish ones are very popular and have excellent results, while the Muslim ones (Trojan horse excepted) also do a good job in teaching their pupils about the faith. You may not be aware that very few pupils at Islamic schools get radicalised, because they know enough to be able to tell the radical preachers to get lost. The ones who carry out terror attacks tend to be petty criminals and others who have come to the religion late and so are vulnerable to a very simplistic form of teaching.

JaneAHersey · 30/01/2015 15:52

I am contributing to this thread based on my experiences and the experiences of others that I am aware of. I attended a Jewish faith school and I can assure you it had nothing to with belonging to the community and I do not agree with your view on Islamic faith schools. Prejudice, anti Semitism etc is taught in schools, in the home and within communities so is class hatred and misogyny. The anti Semitism that we see currently is based on a skewed but very prevalent form of Islam.

Teaching children about the faith is not the point. I was taught that it was almost a criminal act to eat food that was not kosher and I struggled to feed my ill mother. However, I found out many years later that according to the religion that it is acceptable to eat food that is not kosher if a person's ill. The religion did not take account of the suffering of my family, it only considered the maintaining respectability of the community. This remains the case for many minority communities even today, including the Muslim community.

I regularly hear Muslim community leaders blaming the rise in anger of their disaffected youth on American, UK foreign policy regarding Israel. The hatred is cultural and taught, it is not political.

To describe Terrorists as petty criminals misses the point completely and is not helpful.

Many Muslim youths have been on the receiving end of preachers of hate for decades as well as being disaffected from the host community and suffering prejudice. The increase in poverty we are witnessing is not helping the situation. Muslim youth like many youths are having to cope with high unemployment, billions of pounds in cuts to youth services as well as cuts to mental health services. All these factors lead to social exclusion, isolation and possible radicalisation.

kim147 · 30/01/2015 16:17

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sourdrawers · 30/01/2015 17:06

Racism and intolerance are the root of the problem. How we deal with that though is beyond me. I'll have a stab at it though just for fun. Education could be one way.. Pressure the news media to stop pumping people full of fear.

kim147 · 30/01/2015 17:27

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mathanxiety · 30/01/2015 19:31

Moniker, your post on the origins of current anti Semitism has some very questionable elements. The prominent one is:
Why do you prefer the claim of the Palestinians to the land, which are exactly the same as those Israel's claim is based on --
(1) that it was their land from biblical times, and
(2) that it was promised to them in the interwar years by British governments?

It was first promised to Zionists yes Zionists, and that is not a dirty word by Arthur Balfour. Zionism arose in response to growing anti-Semitism in the old empires of the modern age, in Imperial Russia and Austria Hungary in particular but also in Imperial Germany and even in America, where the Jewish experience was not exactly a bed of roses, 'land of the free' rhetoric notwithstanding, and its aim was to stop trying to blend in and just leave, or 'go away' if you will. Oh the ironies of history.

Another irony of course is that Britain was in a position in 1917 to promise the land to anyone. This is something British people sometimes tend to overlook. The disingenuousness of successive British governments in the interwar years, making promises, concealing promises, making secret assurances, taking sides willy nilly as occasion demanded, contributed immeasurably to the brewing conflict. It is really irresponsible for citizens of great world powers to shun complexity and seek the comfort of living lives untroubled by the foreign interference of their own governments, and to jump to conclusions based on the largest headlines with the shortest words.

British interest in a Jewish state arose from wartime exigencies:
Desire to appeal to Jews living in America, Germany, Austria Hungary, and Russia (esp Russian revolutionaries who were Jewish) and perhaps have a proBritish and anti Hun impact on public opinion;
Desire to establish control of an area close to the Ottoman Empire whose demise was not a foregone conclusion at the time of the Declaration;
Desire to maintain control of Suez, important for British India and the far east, and keep France out of the Levant and away from oil as much as possible.
Oil -- control of the Arab middle east (via postwar British League of Nations mandates) and access of British commercial interests to oil was a given in the British Imperial mind. Palestine had a pipeline terminal.

Coyoacan the Balfour Declaration had the effect of encouraging Jews to up sticks and move to Palestine, and why not? It was always assumed and stated explicitly by Lloyd George that the wishes of the majority would be observed when the time came to grant statehood and decide the character of the state. Such is democracy after all, and a similar principle had guided the establishment of the state of Northern Ireland a large enough population to facilitate an economy, but a Unionist majority guaranteed.

Hence the so called invasion of Palestine by 'Zionists' from 1917 on, the majority of whom after 1945 were Jewish survivors of the Holocaust who were still facing pogroms and hatred all over Europe, and later Jews leaving their homes in the middle east where they found themselves unwelcome, and the former Soviet Union.

mathanxiety · 30/01/2015 19:42

Those who profess their hatred of Zionism are perhaps those who like their Jews on the tame side? Who prefer to see Jews as the eternal victim? Who want them to 'blend in' more, be less 'different [from them]'?

If you recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist then you have to accept that Israel has a right to defend itself to exactly the same degree that Britain or any other state has a right to defend itself, and accept that there are many states in the world right now, and many organisations, who want to wipe the state of Israel off the map. Zionism did not arise in a vacuum, and Israeli foreign policy did not either.

mathanxiety · 30/01/2015 20:04

BobTheBuddha -- Take a look at your TV next July 12th and August 15th to see the remnants of what was once institutionalised first vs second class citizenship in Northern Ireland.