Madness!? My atheist friend had her daughter baptised to get her into a faith school

[oliviasmummy]

This is a story about my good friend (you know who you are!!) who recently had her dd (aged 1) baptised. The best school for dd in her area is a C of E primary, and, after enquiring about catchment areas etc she was told that the child should also be baptised to assure entry. This she duly arranged, although feeling, that on the basis of all probability, god does not exist. She does not worship or pray to any such god.
Her argument for doing this is that she wants the best for her child, and if that includes putting dd through some silly ritual that involves water over the head and a nice frilly dress then so be it!
I think that this should be discussed, is she jumping through hoops, as it were, to secure a greater good, or is she being a hypocrite, ignoring her beliefs when it suits?
While I write this as a gentle little probe to annoy, I wonder how other MNers would respond?

faith schools are supposedly there to educate children in that faith. The Voluntary Aided ones are partly funded by contributions collected in the relevant churches.

There's no question of 'worthiness' - all things being equal, what would be the point of sending your child to e.g. a Catholic school if you don't want them educated in teh Catholic faith or going to Mass during school hours?

The schools are there to educate children of that faith, and only take others if there is space left over.

It's only a problem because all things are not equal, but that's exacerbated by people who fib to get their children out of the worst schools, which then become even worse because they lack a critical mass of interested parents.

divastrop, I didn't go to catholic schools as a child but public schools but was raised catholic. some of my siblings are continue wtih their and others have rejected it. I am not scared into belieiving, I have made a conscious decision to have my faith in my life and pass that onto my children as all parents do ie their values etc. Neither here nor there as this thread isn't about our personal struggles with relgion but I did feel I had to correct something that was wrong that you said. I am sure you were taught that as a child, so was I ,but it is not hte case today. Alot of thinking has changed, even religious views since we were kids. I Didn't mean to offend you however, hope I didn't sound patronizing.

Carolina, all children should have access to all schools because schools are funded by taxes paid by everyone, not just those of a particular faith. Maybe faith schools should be allocated the same percentage of places as the faith pay towards costs. And parents may want a child to go to a faith school for any number of reasons; maybe because it is right next door to their house, whereas the alternative is two miles away.

Hi, Rhubarb! I'm okay, surviving, (just) in W Africa. Home for Xmas in less than 8 wks, hurrah! How are you settling in again? How are the dc's?

if all children had access to a place at a good school, it wouldn't be a problem would it?

I doubt any faith school has so many applications from children of that faith that it can't take the kids who live next door .

Doubt away, but ours do. Our local faith schools don't take anyone unless they are not only a member of the relevant faith but also a regular attender at the relevant church. Hypothetically, I think the order goes (1) member of faith and attender at church, (2) member of faith not regular attender at church, (3) not member of faith living close to school, but there are enough applications that they don't get down into category (2) let alone category (3).

religious schools should only educate children that aren't of their religion

why bother educating your own?

seriously, Acnebride?

It's supposed to work in tandem with practising your religion at home. I went to Catholic primary and secondary school and we used to start and end the day with prayers and say grace before lunch (ok, maybe not in the 6th form but ykwim).

RE was about Catholicism, taught as fact (although these days it would be different I guess). At primary school, we would get the day off on certain feast days so we could go to Mass ,

The priest who sat on the board of governors would veto certain choices for end of year plays if he thought they were too racy. So the whole ethos was a Catholic one.

Lemonaid, you obviously live in a very spiritual area . It's not like that round here. Do you live in London?

How did you guess?

We never got the day off for feast days -- the whole school just walked to church for Mass and then back to school again (that wasn't in London, though).

Lemon - ours never get past the first category either. We're also in London

I think the root of the problem is that there are a lot of schools that frankly aren't that good; meaning many parents feel the only decent school in their area is the faith school, which tend to have better results. Of course it then feels very unfair if they can't get their children into the best school, which I can understand. In an ideal world, the local primary would be the best school.

By the way, private schools also receive an element of subsidy as well.

I think one good thing does come out of faith schools though - their strict admissions criteria kind of forces people to become active in their local community (go to mass, be a member of the parish, volunteer etc) and the school community overlaps the church community. The community engagament aspect is very important to me. DS and DD worship on Sunday with the same families they see at school; there is a whole network of church activities they take part in and it gives them a sense of being part of a strong community. Call me old fashioned; but I really think that's an important aspect of their lives (as well as wanting them to be raised Catholics).

But as we see the point of these faith communities is to exclude those who aren't the same.
Hard to see that being good for society as a whole isn't it ?

Domi - no-one is excluded from becoming involved in the church!!!

I can see both sides. But I don't necessarily agree with that.

Faith schools obviously feel that their faith affects their whole lives. So children's education is incorporated into their faith. For Muslims that means learning extensively about Mohammed, saying prayers at set times every day, learning the chants and the language of Islam. For Catholics is it grace before meals, teaching about the sanctity of marriage over the lust of sex, honouring the holy days and learning about the sacraments.

However it still is a form of exclusion as these children only get to mix with other children of the same religion, they hear no alternative opinions. I do believe that with the right balance at home, they can have a non-religious education and still honour their faith (if they want to). Indeed I believe they will grow up to be better people if they have mixed with children of Muslim faiths, Rasta faiths, atheists, children from poor backgrounds, children from rich backgrounds. Can you imagine the better people they could be just for having that rich diversity in schools?

It's an ideal I know, but the more we separate our children by paying for a private school, by shielding them from the harshness of poverty, by shunning religions that are not our own, the more ignorant and biased our children will be. We do not protect them by doing this, we corrupt them.

That was very nicely put, Rhubarb. This issue is very complex, seems evryone has different, but valid, opinion. Shame that some schools are so rubbish that we even need this debate!

Rhubarb - good points. There was a muslim girl on Radio 4 this morning and I was shocked to hear how segregated her muslim school was - she actually left as she became afraid of meeting non muslims as they never mixed outside the school. One of her class mates had never heard of Starbucks or been outside her own street, where the school also was. They were also afraid of going to Uni and having to mix with non-muslims.

Very unhealthy IMO.

TBH, no mainstream CofE or Catholic schools in England have that degree of segregation and I certainly wouldn't agree with that. We mix with everyone and anyone, but our little church community is still a special place for us as well, where the kids enjoy one of their many networks.

I think that is what the government is scared about too - the potential segregation of muslim children into muslim schools, which may reflect very differing values from wider society. Most Church schools are pretty tame religiously nowadays.

imnot - all the secondary schools in our area are dreadful, including the CofE one! Dreading the point where we have to make decisions about secondary schools - what a nightmare!

fox - that's quite a cheeky way of putting it!

Nobody is excluded from the church in theory, but why should somebody who has no religious belief, and who feels that there is fundamentally no evidence for the existence of a God or gods, wish to associate themselves with a church?

Why should somebody who has no religious belief, and who feels that there is fundamentally no evidence for the existence of a God or gods, be denied a school place for their child - any more than a hospital bed or a bus seat?

It's like saying nobody is excluded from going along to fairy-hunting meetings, or astrology lessons.

Where do you live Fox? We have some firends who moved to Norfolk last year from N London, mainly because didn't really have a high school in London that they could contemplate sending their kids to! Is obviuosly quite drastic to move 100 miles, but they are very pleased they did it!!

I think that before we go any further with this we should all join hands and say a little prayer to Jesus!

C'mon everyone!

Sniggers at Rhubarb's slightly weird suggestion

we live in SW London. TBH all the primary schools here are good but all the secondaries are abysmal

Well, just move to Norfolk then! It may smell of pigs**t but the schools are great!

fox...

which part of sw london are you in?

wheres this erm stuff about c of e schools being posh come from?my childrens school was a run-down failing school that was put on special measures untill the current head mistress turned it all around(and won headteacher of the year last year for her efforts).ds1 went to a c of e school in salford for a short time also which was awful.

fox-the situation with secondary schools is the same where i live.there is not one ive heard good things about,although everyone fights to get their children into the catholic one which is no better than any of the others.

Bossykate - we're in Richmond, which is terribly poshe don't you know. But because DS's school intakes from a much wider area, his school is more socially mixed than the normal "you have to live within half a mile catchment area" schools here. Also, its more racially mixed and we're a mixed race family.