Madness!? My atheist friend had her daughter baptised to get her into a faith school

[oliviasmummy]

This is a story about my good friend (you know who you are!!) who recently had her dd (aged 1) baptised. The best school for dd in her area is a C of E primary, and, after enquiring about catchment areas etc she was told that the child should also be baptised to assure entry. This she duly arranged, although feeling, that on the basis of all probability, god does not exist. She does not worship or pray to any such god.
Her argument for doing this is that she wants the best for her child, and if that includes putting dd through some silly ritual that involves water over the head and a nice frilly dress then so be it!
I think that this should be discussed, is she jumping through hoops, as it were, to secure a greater good, or is she being a hypocrite, ignoring her beliefs when it suits?
While I write this as a gentle little probe to annoy, I wonder how other MNers would respond?

Domi - ours do - our priests that is. They also won't marry you in the church if you have no record of attendance. They won't refusse outright but will make clear that you need to show a committment (i.e. attend) before they'll do the ceremonial stuff for you.

On a slightly different subject, but on your other point; the whole committment to educational attainment amongst our kids is a a very interesting and complex subject, which I'm currently involved in at work. Lots of disparity amongst race/culture etc; not all to do with parental income. e.g. why do Somalian and Bangladeshi parents push their children hard to achieve in school and afro-caribbean children are failing - as are white working class kids. Its much more complex than just parental income/class - its also to do with cultural attitudes towards education and work which people bring with them.

I've said this on other threads, but out Catholic school has a very high intake of working class kids from a wide range of parishes and also lots of Catholic european kids with ESOL needs. About 30% of DS's friends have another first language. Interestingly, all the Catholic schools in our borough prioritise children with special needs above siblings too in terms of school applications!!!

I know you don't agree with "superstitious" schools though anyway

catholic preists are allowed to refuse christenings.i thought this thread started off with talking about c of e schools though,which are totally different.

i really had no idea there was so much snobbery going on in todays society...do middle class parents really think that working class ones dont care about their childrens' education?if thats so much of a problem then pay for your child to go to private school!

Although, let's be fair, there are plenty of people who would define themselves as middle-class and would struggle to pay private school fees.

There is a lot of snobbery, and all it needs is for, one year, a group of parents to stand firm and say they are not going to cut and run and they are going to support the local school no matter how bad it is. In the real world, this isn't going to happen. Nobody is interested in changing things for the better for future intakes - they want the best for their own children. Now. And that's understandable.

i just assumed that people who look down their noses at others must be rich.

they will need to attend church and be active members of a church with a recomendation letter from their priest to get in to the C of E church, if ours is anything to go by.

Diva - you're right, it was about CofE schools, but as my kids go to a Catholic school I just can't resist getting involved in these threads, if only to try and debunk some of the absolute crap that aethiests try and spread about church schools!

DS wants to do some of these:

ive been bad-mouthing catholic schools and im not an atheist

but they were different in my day

Diva - I went to one too. I loved mine but know some others were likened to oppressive torture dens!

They are cool and trendy now you know! In London, so it goes, you have to pay or pray to get your kids into a half way decent school. A slight generalisation, but there is some truth to that!!

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Hi Pruni - yeah I know that's what the thread is about, but some can't help making up little fibs, like that church schools are full of middle class kids, or have more english speaking kids than most schools, or don't like admiting special needs kids, which are all untrue. I went to one and so do my kids and they are not middle class - as they have very wide catchment areas, have high ESOL needs and prioritise special needs kids. Just correcting the myths being put about by some on this thread, who are against ALL religion per se.

Quite happy to debate how crap the system is though, where people in many areas feel they have to pay or pray, or get stuck in the residual school!

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my school was alright really its just the fact that RE was taught only from the catholic viewpoint.there certainly weren't any middle class children at my school and there arent any at ds and dd1's c of e school.
my mother had me baptised so i would be cleansed of original sin and sent me to a catholic school so i could learn to be a good catholic girl.
i just get annoyed when people assume the working classes arent bothered about education.

It's not a "fib" that on average religious schools admit fewer children from poor backgrounds and fewer with special needs. I will find a link to that research.

That's not to say that all religious schools do that.

'Tis so a fib!

Pruni - I consider your attempts to steer me well away from the boring old debate about faith schools very helpful actually. These debates tend to get very bogged down in pro/anti (like a lot of threads ), the wider debate is much more interesting.

Diva - I agree with you. I think some middle class people think they have the intellectual highground as well as the financial highground! DS's school is a complete social mixture, with kids from the large estates and the kids form the huge houses all rubbing along very nicely. All the parents seem very comitted to the school, not just the posh ones and the PTA is dominated by working class Irish parents, with a few Spaniards and Poles thrown in

am trawling old news items to find that report.....

Wow, I'm not from the UK and I am amazed by the pay or pray concept. Not because it's exclusionary, but because it is so much more inclusionary that religious schools in Aus!
In Aus you have to pay and pray!! Almost all private schools are religious and vice versa.
Then again, I went to private/religious schools all my life and am now (wasn't always) a practicing athiest. Furthermore, I have no problem with religious schools and the way they operate - they relive pressure on the state system apart from anything else. I would also send my children to a private/religious school and lie to get them in if I had to.

Here is an article based on the report I am talking about some website called Ekklesia which sounds sort of pro-religion to me rather than a ranting atheist sort of site

That article is particularly discussing the poverty and income selection issues, I don't think the special needs issues.

Does that link work properly - it seems a bit strange?

I went to very working class very rough catholic schools in some very tough areas. In our district it was the CofE schools that were posh.

I am still a practising catholic but I believe that all faith schools should be banned, faith should be taught at home. Schools should not be selective, every child no matter what religion or background has every right to have the same education as their peers. I also believe private schools should be banned on that same concept.

My dd goes to the local village school. I will practice what I preach.

No wonder there is so much prejudice and ignorance around when children are being segregated in this way.

And here is the report it's based on, September 2006, by the National Foundation for Education Research report about UK school admissions

This has about income of children going to voluntary aided (i.e. faith) schools, and also a section on Special needs admissions.

Indeed, Rhubarb, you don't have to be anti-religion to be not keen on faith schools. I know loads of practising Christians who aren't comfortable with them.

It's the Muslim only faith schools that persuaded me fennel, that and my stint in France where all religious symbols are banned in their state schools. I believe that faith schools are biased and create an ignorant and segregated class of children. Not that I'm any happier having dd celebrate the CofE religion in her school either - I don't want her pledging allegiance to that silly old cow sitting on her gold encrusted throne!

I'm a Marxist at heart.

Fennel yes it does work. Hmm, interesting. Maybe it does apply to CofE schools, or maybe people of faith just have more intelligent children?

Hmm, yes think its the latter

Seriously, it doesn't sound like DS's school at all, but I suspect Catholic schools are more working class/BME etc anyway, as its a minority religion. I suppose by definition, CofE people are more likley to be white anglo saxon and therefore on a higher wage due to glass ceilings for people from BME communities etc.

Or perhaps these school's excellent reputations have led to house prices rises in the catchment areas and led to the intake becoming more middle class, like most other schools. I know that the CofE school where we live has a tiny geographical catchment area, whereas the Catholic school covers five very diverse parishes. The Evening Sandard did an article about the house prices around the local CofE school and estimated that being in the catchment area puts £50k on yer house value!

We could have maybe just about got a place there for DS just about but I think its too snobby - full of loud mouthed high acheivers in 4 wheel drives DS's school is full of much more normal people, from across the globe etc and we prefer that. But then we're not white anglo saxon either, so wouldn't have felt comfortable with the posh CofE school, although we do want the kids to go to a good school obviously.

Did you now that CofE schools have now agreed to admit 25% of kids from non CofE backgrounds now? That means less aethiests will have to get their children baptised in future

Re Fox's last para about quotas, I was interested in this news item about other faiths rejecting Quotas. Personally, I dislike faith schools for a number of reasons but especially the concept that a child is judged worthy or otherwise by its parents values, over which it has no control.

Hi suedonim! How're you doing?