Madness!? My atheist friend had her daughter baptised to get her into a faith school

[oliviasmummy]

This is a story about my good friend (you know who you are!!) who recently had her dd (aged 1) baptised. The best school for dd in her area is a C of E primary, and, after enquiring about catchment areas etc she was told that the child should also be baptised to assure entry. This she duly arranged, although feeling, that on the basis of all probability, god does not exist. She does not worship or pray to any such god.
Her argument for doing this is that she wants the best for her child, and if that includes putting dd through some silly ritual that involves water over the head and a nice frilly dress then so be it!
I think that this should be discussed, is she jumping through hoops, as it were, to secure a greater good, or is she being a hypocrite, ignoring her beliefs when it suits?
While I write this as a gentle little probe to annoy, I wonder how other MNers would respond?

Would that be a state-funded Islamic school?

I'm not adverse to diversity. I agree that we need to have these differences if anything it proves that we are human. What I disagree with is the possibility that my DD will have to go to a third rate state school because I am not religious. I'm Scottish, from a very Protestant (read non-church going) family, yet I'm expected to go to a very Catholic, CofE church to benefit my childs education. I don't think that adds up.

yeah, but the dissolution of the monasteries - in the name of the Church of England - put an end to a lot of that.

not that that's particularly relevant to getting into a good primary

Isn't any method of selection discriminatory to anyone who doesn't 'pass' though.

Maybe Im just being thick. I haven't woken up properly yet

Yes, but the Church also got involved in medicine/hospitals long before the State did, and we don't have a system that requires you to produce a certificate of baptism/church attendance before the NHS will treat your ingrowing toenail at the local CofE hospital in the next road rather than making you limp across town to the non-denominational hospital.

And, in the days when the church ran education and the State didn't, the state/taxpayers didn't have to pay for the church schools. It's the taking public money and giving it to institutions that discriminate on grounds of religion that rankles.

That's an unfair generalisation harpsi! I can't speak for tweezerqueen's particular church but there are many congregations and priests out there whose Christian objectives are to welcome all, including people who are uncertain about their beliefs, and follow Jesus' example of helping people in the community.
If you felt uncomfortable with the weekly service tweezerqueen then good for you for being honest and scrupulous enough to step away from just turning up each Sunday. But I am really sad to hear that your experiences of church left you feeling unconvinced and "used".

No but the problem is Tweezerqueen is that your other option should not have to be a third rate alternative, everyone should have access to good non-religious schools. That is not fair.

Yes it is hypocritical but understandable if all the other schools are crap (are they?). But personally I wouldn't do it. I agree with the argument that you shoud try and help make your local school as good as poss so all children can benefit.

I don't agree with state funded faith schools - CofE, Catholic, Islamic, Jewish, whatever. They are divisive in a society which needs desperately more than ever to emphasise its similarities rather than its differences. Religion should be left to the home, church, mosque, temple, synagogue or whatever.

Of course they should be taught about religion in state schools, but not one religion exclusively.

My DS attends a community school which is fab and non-denominational but still they take them to church at Christmas and learn about bible stories. He loves it and I like seeing him enjoy it (I believe in a Christian God myself but don't attend church), but would be happier if they also arranged for similar visits to mosques, synagogues and the like. However 99.9% of the school populations is caucasian and would probably describe themselves as Christian if they had to label themselves. It's not a particularly multi-ethnic area.

Isn't a daily act of worship a legal requirement? Correct me if I'm wrong. Is there anything in the law that says this has to be a Christian act of worship?

"Used" to get numbers up?

I understand various faith groups, not all Christian, run day centres for the elderly and have other "social care" functions and can apply for state funding for such activities. I don't see a problem with that as the State would probably have to support the same people through different channels if the faith groups kept out of those functions.

The trouble with trying to establish a completely fair education system by removing all differences between schools is that you remove all the benefits of diversity and seeing how people could do things better, and it won't bring fairness anyhow, just a black market in private tutoring.

Wordsmith, yes, the daily act of worship has to be "of a broadly Christian character".

yes I apologise marina I was being flippant and argumentative. I absolutely acknowledge that many churches are welcoming and do wonderful work in the community. but not all church schools are welcoming the community. it tends to leave a nasty taste imo.

I have no objection to faith groups running day centres for the elderly or other "social care" functions with state funding so long as the religion of the people being helped is not a criterion for inclusion (and so long as it's not used as an opportunity for proselytising). If you are only helping members of your own faith community (or are discriminating against those not of your faith community), however, then that faith community can pay for it.

Surely the issue is what you want for your child's education ... I, for example, would not want my child's school day interrupted for three of the five Muslim prayer times...because it would not make sense unless I and/or they were Muslim. Equally, were I not Christian, I would begrudge the hour and a half out of each day that is taken up with a church service and prayers, etc. etc. Therefore, as an atheist, surely your friend's dilemma is not to run herself into the ground getting her child baptised into a religion that she does not believe in, but to set about putting that effort into finding and supporting a secular school in the area - with three years grace on her side she ought to be able to drum up enough local parental support to make a difference?

FWIW MArina, I was a bit shocked by the suggestion that baptising a child was "a waste of time". that's a pretty unpleasant (and unChristian) thing to say, imo. that if a child's parents are agnostic/atheist then it's not worth welcoming them into the church.

The friend doesn't seem to be running herself into the ground to get her dd baptised, though sounds rather like she's turned up at the church, said "I'd like my daughter christened", bought her a nice dress and had a christening ceremony. Total effort maybe three hours, including shopping? I suspect that if she did put that effort into finding and supporting a secular school in the area it wouldn't, on balance, make a great deal of difference. And there's no indication that she'd begrudge time out of the school day for CofE-related stuff, either (an hour and a half each day, though? What goes to make that up? I went to a Catholic school and it wasn't even nearly that much)

I think it's shame, and it's an unpleasant set of hoops to jump through for the parents that do it, and I think it cheapens the religious act itself.
Of course it's hypocritical, but who is encouraging the hypocrisy? Having said that, there are people that come to church through things like this and then find it really helps at another point in their lives.

I do think it's an odd situation for a school to put people in, though. I suppose it's down to asking why the school is a good school. Is it so because of the underlying Christian emphasis, and if you took that away would it not be such a good school?

I'm kind of cheating here as we home-ed, but it's an interesting topic coming from a Christian perspective.

Where was that said harpsi? When I replied to anorak re church schools in some areas being the only ones available, what I meant was that if she did not want her child baptised then she doesn't have to.

my 2 older children go to a cof e school and neither have been baptised.ALL schools have certain entrance criteria if they are over-subscribed,such as priority being given to those with siblings at the school etc.
i dont agree with getting babies baptised atall personally,i think children should choose for themselves if they want to be christian etc when they are old enough.and to stand up in church and say ur going to bring ur child up to belive in god ,follow the faith etc when u dont even believe in god isnt just hypocrisy,its a blatant lie.
the only time given to the c of e stuff at ds and dd1's school is when they have hymn practise and when they say prayers at the end of the day.

its catholic schools that force religion down kids throats,not c of e.

If the only way I could get my child into a "good" school was to get them baptised I would. I am an aetheist but grew up CofE and ultimately its up to my children if they chose to "believe" or not.

I think it is telling that a lot of the "good" schools are religious schools perhaps this is because they are taught traditional values and not just to succeed and achieve!!

I went to a Church of England School and I am not christened/baptised.
I certainly wouldn't baptise ds to get him into a school! Surely baptism is about your whole life and not just about a few years in some school!

I agree with soulgirl - look at the reasons WHY they are the best schools. And I also went to a Catholic primary school Lemonaid and we had an hour's full church service each morning and a half hour of prayers after lunch, but maybe that is not the case throughout...I was only going on what I knew!!

I disagree with the whole existence of faith schools anyway. I don't see why my taxes should be used to fund (partially or otherwise) the running of any establishment that I or my family cannot access due to religion.

Just goes to show they could ALL improve with some tweaking of their focus and supportive parents!!