Madness!? My atheist friend had her daughter baptised to get her into a faith school

[oliviasmummy]

This is a story about my good friend (you know who you are!!) who recently had her dd (aged 1) baptised. The best school for dd in her area is a C of E primary, and, after enquiring about catchment areas etc she was told that the child should also be baptised to assure entry. This she duly arranged, although feeling, that on the basis of all probability, god does not exist. She does not worship or pray to any such god.
Her argument for doing this is that she wants the best for her child, and if that includes putting dd through some silly ritual that involves water over the head and a nice frilly dress then so be it!
I think that this should be discussed, is she jumping through hoops, as it were, to secure a greater good, or is she being a hypocrite, ignoring her beliefs when it suits?
While I write this as a gentle little probe to annoy, I wonder how other MNers would respond?

No, SW London. I think much of London is similar, though.

bubble, you are terrifyingly ignorant of British folk music, I expect you are proud of this fact....
Scottish folk dancing is a marvellous thing
English folk music is a wonderful thing
not all the songs are about sailors
some are about herring, for example

I would have thought that it would be pretty pointless baptising a child if you weren't then going to go to church regularly, and if you went to church regularly the school wouldn't be that fussy about baptism?

Meanwhile, I thought Rowan Williams had said that it was CofE policy that church schools should be open to all children regardless of faith?

We aren't prcatising Christians although I'm batised and believe. dh is uncertain but but currently exploring buddhism. We have just applied for the Catholic school for dd. I have been totally honest on my application form including the fact that dd is not baptised although she had a church blessing. If they wont accept her on those terms then it's not the right school for her as she would be the "odd one out". If they do accept her and live up to their prospectus claims of being equal then great. They have 2 Muslim families there which the head was quite proud to tell us and I think he said about 35% non Catholics

CarolinahowlingattheMoon, thanks, your post at 6.43pm explains it better than i did. I'm so crap at explaining myself properly.

well we have to get the numbers up you know

My nearest school is CofE VA. The admissions criteria are, looked after children (fine), siblings, children of regular worshippers at that particularl church or neigbouring CofE parishes, then children of other faiths (WTF?) and only then local children. Extraordinary - how come every sodding religion takes precedence over lapsed CofE/atheists/agnostics? Domini's right, they are still funded through general taxation. I can see the point of regular attendance at that church scoring above just living nearby, but why the hell we come below anyone who believes in whatever, I do not know. Hugely discriminatory.

Anyway, am hoping ds will get into the even-better non-denominational local school. But it pisses me off. I went to a CofE junior school because it was the local school -there was none of this having to turn up to church every week stuff about it.

It's hypocritical but IMO this only matters if it bothers the person being hypocritical (IYSWIM). It doesn't matter what other people think - they can make their own choices about where they send their kids. Personally I couldn't go through with the scam as I wouldn't be able to lie when ds later asks me if I believe in God.

don't you mind hypocrisy in others Plummymummy?

my older 2 ask me about god all the time and ask why i dont go to church so i tell them the truth that i do believe in god but not in organised religion.

I guess it is for each persons individual conscience. My kids are in catholic schools and we are practicing catholics (please no catholic jokes) and it is important to us that the kids are raised in the faith. However, many mums and dads I know have kids in the school who do not practice the faith. the catholic religion is taught, prayers open each day and the sacraments are given at the appropriate age (although the children are not forced receive the sacraments and there is not penalty if they refuse). If the parents for whatever reason choose the school knowing that, what is it to me. I wonder how they explain to their kids their choice but lack of belief but again, that is between them. As to your friend calling it a silly ritual, she may find her view quite out numbered at her child's school and she will have to explain to her child her apparent contradictory views some day. She may find this more difficult than she thinks. I would not want to have to have that conversion with my child. Finally, catholics do not believe babies are "contaminated" and need to be cleansed. This is an old belief but not at all the view of modern catholics (this was clearly explained at our baptism course prior to our child's baptism). Cathlics have to take a several week's course prior to a baptism to explain the signifigance of the "silly ritual". Maybe if your friend had attended such a course. It is really a moving and joyful experience.

Nogoes is right that it is setting an example to one's children by lying to get them into a school.

The trick is to make sure it is a good example, rather than allow the default of it encouraging selfish deceit.

If you are going to lie in a major way with your children, then you need to put it in an ethical context. My ethics are that is it is appropriate to lie when a large group misappropriate your taxes and deny a good education to children on the basis of their parent's class and religion.

I simply don't believe there is such a thing as a "catholic" child or moslem, or even atheists.
They simply don't understand this stuff, that's what being a child means. Their model of the basis of the main religions is little different to the wat Peter Parker got bitten by a radioactive spider.

shurely that's the point of sending them to a religious school DC, so they can be educated in the relevant faith?

Not sure tbh why all this ire is directed at faith schools and not at the government, which lets some schools become so crap that parents have to lie about their beliefs to get their children away from them and into a decent school.

Both good points.
It is very ironic, but parents have to deal with the way things are, not as they want them to be.
Most parents want good secular education, but as you say, there is a grave shortage of this.
Although the government is at fault, it's because we, the voters don't give them the hard time they need to stop pandering to teaching unions, advocates of various superstitions and those who think sport is a valid alternative to teaching black boys.

DS is at a CoE school, though this was not through deceit, the senior Chaplain and I are old enemies.

It may be a tough choice, if your nearest good school is a faith school and the only other alternative is a really crap school.

You may - with justification - think "why the hell should my child not get in just because I don't believe in the Great Celestial Teapot?" and decide that you will subvert the system from within. It's one of the few lines of attack which parents have left to them in this morally-bankrupt system of "choice".

So I blame the system, not individuals.

I'd agree that the idea of "Christian children", "Muslim children" etc, is an odd one, when children are still learning what they believe; when they start school, most of them still believe in the Tooth Fairy and Father Christmas, after all. The difference is that most of us grow out of the Tooth Fairy and Father Christmas, and only some of us grow out of God.

Richard Dawkins rails against this, and insist we should say "children of [insert religion] parents."

New survey shows Catnolic schools do well not because of goo teaching but because the parents are very family orientated, disciplined and want the children to do well at school. That is one reason grammar schools and many private schools are better too. In other words we as children make our children how they are and how they will or will not thrive in the schools and educating them with children of similar backgrounds/ethos works. It's one reason the very committed religious Hindu/Muslim etc children near where we live who go to the private schools make a good class too and the Chinese who push so much and work hard (bit of a generalisation but I think true). SO you're hoping to put your child amongst children of other families who have the same hardworking ethos who would never dream a child wouldn't do homework that night etc.

No reason why aetheists can't have the same home life but they just haven't had a chance to establish schools and perhaps they are just too diverse a group from educated ones who've thought hard that God doesn't exist to those who never think about anything but the next pint.

You can be family orientated, disciplined and wanting the children to do well at school without any religious belief whatsoever. You can also be religious and be a lax parent!

I don't think it's a question of atheists needing to be organised to get themselves setting up schools. I want everyone to be free to study whatever religion they choose - no matter how wacky I may feel it is - in their homes and in their churches, temples and mosques. What I don't want is a religious agenda pushed in school. I think this is a perfectly reasonable request.

Atheism is the default position - all schools should be religion-neutral, although children should absolutely be taught ABOUT religions and their cultural significance.

I see no more reason for having a faith school than for having a faith hospital - or indeed a Labour school, or a ginger people's school, or [etc, etc, you get the idea]...

Message withdrawn

Carolina no I don't really care about hypocrisy in others (unless they take me on, in which case I most certainly will have a problem with it)I think it's too common to be irked by it. As I say, one has to stand by ones own principles - we can't make everyone else abide by them.

Do you send out autographed pictures, UnquietDad?

Only to scare small children.

Do you think that would work as a threat to enforce bedtime? If so, I'll definitely have one...

totally agree with all unquietdad has said.

He really does send out photos to scare small children?

My firends, both atheists, have sent their daughter to a private Ctholic school, and now have to contend with proclamations that Jesus is watching over them, they will rise from the dead etc, which unerves them somewhat. But I think they deserve what they get! How do you imply to your child that her teachers and peers are lying? Or, will she think her parents do not tell her the truth? I see what Unquietdad is saying totally, but also agree that faith schools do tend to be better as the children often have a stronger sense of community and family cohesion because of their faith. I guess if it is so imprortant to get your child into school that you will completely go against your own beliefs the questioning from your child will be a minor problem, but personally I wouldn't EVER pretend my children were muslim FOR EXAMPLE (i'm CoE) to get them into school!!