Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

950 replies

magicfarawaytree · 06/10/2006 08:12

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

OP posts:
fuzzywuzzy · 06/10/2006 14:07

Most Muslim women who wear the veil face opposition from their family members.

And hoodies were considered to be anti-social as the people wearing them were usig them to cover their faces which would prevent them being positively identified for commiting crimes......

Piffle · 06/10/2006 14:11

I think if we talk about dresing in a ways people find offensive, then it's Jodie Marsh and Jordan et al who should be singled out.
I feel more intimidated by flaunting of semi naked bodies in soft porn outfits, then I do a fully covered Muslim woman.
I must admit once though, MIL and I were a queue for ice cream and a woman in full face covered dress (is that Burqa?) was in the queue and I did wonder who on earth she would eat it.
I saw a survey done by a civil rights group or similar (ie: not muslim propaganda) that muslim women in the UK who wear the full monty do so not by oredr but by personal choice
Once I understood it is a personal issue, my worries about it waned tbh.
FWIw I'm not intimidated by it at all.

Northerner · 06/10/2006 14:11

Forgive me, but I really do not understand teh erasons behind wearing a full veil. In my area there are no women dressed like this, so it is not something I have ever seen in real life. Guess I lead a sheltered life

However as a woman, I feel to go out veiled is rather degrading. Why can another man not see their face? Why on earth would thet be God's law? And does this not signify that a muslim woman is some how the property of her husband?

Someone educate me please!

trinity2 · 06/10/2006 14:12

Not all "hoodies" were them because they are committing crimes, its just a uniform for the young, every generation has a dress code. Cloths have hoods on these days.

southeastastralplain · 06/10/2006 14:13

more women wearing the full veil should talk about it on tv or whatever, lots of people just don't understand why they do it and that causes fear. the jodie marsh etc comparison is just silly.

fuzzywuzzy · 06/10/2006 14:13

Northener a Muslim woman wouldn't unveil in front of a non-muslim woman either under most circumstances...

Northerner · 06/10/2006 14:16

But why? Why can't non muslims see a muslim's women face (in some cases?) yet they can see the face of a man?

What age do these women begin to wear one?

Blandmum · 06/10/2006 14:17

as a very different point there is a significant rise in the cases of Adult Rickets in fully veiled women in the UK.

For a couple of reasons, houses in the UK to not afford them envlosed spaces which are open to the sunlight as they would be in the Middle East.

The sunlight isn't as strong in more Northern areas so you need proprtionatly more sun to stimulate the production of Vitamin D, and the darker your skin the more sunlight you need.

Traditional foods do not always 'fill the gap' caused by all of the above.

Spidermama · 06/10/2006 14:19

I agree with Jack Straw and I find myself respecting his stance, for a change.

If there really is freedom for people to wear what they want then why does the naked rambler keep being arrested and thrown in jail for choosing what not to wear? Double standards methinks.

I've said it on another thread ... my kids used to be scared when they saw Muslim women in Brockwell Park with the full black robed, slitty eye thing going on. I tried to allay their fears but frankly I could completely understand why it's a bit creepy to see people like this. In the same way I'd be frightened of someone in a balaclava with their hood pulled up trying to conceal themselves.

I also think it sends out the message that they want to opt out of society and be invisible which indeed creates a barrier and is bad for the sense of community.

It's not a requirement of the Koran but rather a cultural choice and cultural choices should be balanced and must relate not only to the individual and to the specific religeous group but to the society as a whole. Tolerance needs to work both ways and I feel there's a balance to be redressed.

figroll · 06/10/2006 14:19

On the question of Saudi Arabia - I believe that out of respect for their culture a Westerner should cover themselves up, despite this not necessarily being part of our culture(!). I believe that Westerners do indeed respect their culture - although whether this is through respect or fear, I don't know.

People who wear the veil (I believe and what do I know) are using it to remain remote from Western society. Most of them are British anyway - 2nd generation. They know how it makes white British people feel.

I agree that many people in this country find it threatening, particularly the older generation. My mum is horrified by it all - she keeps telling me that more and more people are coming here and she is upset by it. I have tried telling her that they are British anyway, but she won't have any of it.

I have no particular difficulties with any religion, but Muslims know that a lot of innocent people died last year in London (very quickly brushed under the carpet) and there is definitely fear in the air.

Spidermama · 06/10/2006 14:20

FWIW I also find it rude when people keep suglasses on when I'm talking to them. It's alienating and unfriendly.

figroll · 06/10/2006 14:21

I don't like boys sitting in my classes with caps on, so I politely request that they remove them.

Spidermama · 06/10/2006 14:22

I wouldn't flounce around in Yemen drinking wine and sporting a bikini because I respect other peoples culture. I want people to show the same respect for mine.

fuzzywuzzy · 06/10/2006 14:31

Loads of Muslims also dies in the bombings last year.

And as far as I know no muslim woman is breaking the law by wearing a veil. As a naked rambler is, I personally care not one whit, whether a rambler chooses to chance getting frostbite on his bits.

speedymama · 06/10/2006 14:31

Jack Straw's comments are not racist. He is entitled to air them without having that charge levelled at him. Banks asks people wearing motorcycle helmets to remove them but fully veiled Muslim women can do as they please. Why? Last year, Bluewater banned hoodies because they concealed faces so why are fully veiled Muslim women allowed to do as they please?

The veil has nothing to do with Islam. The Qur'an directs that women must "lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers and a few others" (Qur'an 24:31). Muhammad was specific and said to Asma, a daughter of his first successor, Abu Bakr, that "when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and pointed to her face and hands (this is from a book 32 by Abu Dawud).

The total covering started initially with the Bedouin tribes in Arabia who wanted to protect themselves from sandstorms. Mysogenists in these cultures then decided to use it as an opportunity to keep their women in their place, particularly with the rise of Islam. You have to also remember that in Islam, women are inferior to men and the veil reinforces that. Muhammad married Aisha, when she was 6yo and consummated the marriage when she was only 9yo. She had not even started menstruating. Yet millions believe that this fraud was a prophet.

What people in the West need to wake up to is that Islam means submission. There are a lot of Muslims who want the West to submit to their will as well as their way of life and little by little they are endeavouring to usurp Western culture, traditions etc with their own whilst the West allows this because they are paralysed through fear of being accused of racism.

Britons needs to wake up and reclaim their country. My mother is from Jamaica and says that it is time that the Muslims who do not want to integrate go and live in a Muslim country. I agree with her. Look at that idiot last week who condemned John Reid for entering Muslim areas - he claims over £700 in benefits. If the British way of life and the British people are so bad, surely who would not want anything from it or the people.

It is interesting, that Saudi Arabia does not allow fully veiled women in public buildings so why are the women in this country choosing to denigrate themselves in this way? In my opinion they do so for political reasons.

figroll · 06/10/2006 14:37

Fuzzy wuzzy - I am sure that many different religions died in the bombings last year - but what was the religion of the perpetrators?

fuzzywuzzy · 06/10/2006 14:37

Speedymama the Prophet accepted to marry Aisha, when she was divorced from a previous marriage because her father refused to give up Islam as his faith.

The marriage was arranged by a go between, not on the Prophet's behest.

Girls were married young (and many still are) in Eastern cultures.

Where did you get that she had not reached maturity when her marriage was consummated with the Propthet (pbuh)???

The veil is prescribed by God, it is in the Quran, the extent is up for debate, but for those women who choose to wear the veil belive that they are asked to cover everything.

I think it takes great courage fo ones convictions to practice wearign the full veil in this country in the face of such extreme hate.

figroll · 06/10/2006 14:39

I don't believe that there is extreme hate in this country!!!

fuzzywuzzy · 06/10/2006 14:40

Figroll why excactly is the religion of the perpetrators bought up?? The IRA are not held as bastions of thier religion. No terorists are but should a Muslim commit a crime than the entire Muslim community is required to stand up and apologise a thousand times for the crimes of someone else.

I miraculously didn't get on the central line that day because I rearranged my work days to fit in with childcare.

The lives of the muslims are considered as an aside 'oh yes I'm sure some muslims died but thats not important because what was the religion of the perpetrators....' No idea personally as I'd never met nor conversed with any of the perpatrators.

figroll · 06/10/2006 14:40

However, the bombers last year must have had extreme hate to do what they did.

fuzzywuzzy · 06/10/2006 14:42

really figroll you don't believe there is extreme hate in this country, just re-read this thread.

figroll · 06/10/2006 14:43

I am not devaluing anyone's life, in fact I really don't give a shit about anyone's religion, but I really do object to you saying that there is extreme hate in this country. I am very offended by it actually. I don't hate anyone for their religion and I really do take exception.

GreenSlashedSleeves · 06/10/2006 14:45

Of course the IRA are regarded as bastions of their religion and their culture as distinct from that of the Protestants they regard as occupying their territory. If your understanding of the Irish troubles is so rudimentary you ought not to attempt to use it as an analogy.

figroll · 06/10/2006 14:45

I think people are talking about fear actually, I don't think anyone on this thread has said that they hate Muslims, or if they have I have certainly missed this. I think there has been justification in this fear too. Look at those people who drew cartoons, Salman Rushdie, 9/11, etc, etc, etc. It doesn't really help anyone's cause does it.

moaningpaper · 06/10/2006 14:46

BBC have obviously had complaints

The headline is now : Straw dislikes all Muslim veils

god they make me mad