Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

But look at it from the other side . How do you think it looks from the outside that all the men wear suits and all the women wear short skirts/lowcut or see through blouses.(generalising a bit to make point) Does that look as if western women are in control of their lives to people who find it shocking and different to see so much female flesh?
And to use the kiddies story...
Does the wind blowing make the man take his coat off or the sun shining?

they annoy me (the full veil)

I think its pretentious

He's not racist. Culturalist? Anyway, agree with him, very difficult to converse with someone when can't see their face (hate people wearing sunglasses, especially indoors)

calm down some of you. He isn't 'telling ' women not to wear a veil he is ASKING - duh.

I predict a riot.

can anyone tell me what the reason is behind wearing the veil?

not all muslim women wear it do they? it's not insisted upon?

it's not even in the Q'uran as far as I know. I'd like to know the reason too.

is there anything intrinsically wrong with showing one's face in public?

tis pretension pure and simple

I think you may be right Enid!

I think to some people its similar to the way nuns might wear one and to others its about culture and high class. ie rifraf don't get to see my face. I don't think it is very often about female subordination tbh it just looks a bit like that to 'us.'

I think the BBC have been anti-Labour ever since Peter Mandelson banned them from any mention of his gayness.

Reasons for veil?

Seems to be to do with having a public poo - it says here.

did he do that ? did he take court proceedings against them ? never heard that one before!

OMG so it's so they can have an anonymous dump in public?

that website has got to be a wind up surely?

Thats all a bit mad on that link! The clothes really make sense in a hot dusty or sandy climate. I wear a Shalwar kamiz when away and they are really comfortable. Anyone who is religious will aim to be modest anyway. There is just so much tension about Islam in the current climate. But most muslims don't wear the burka and I don't know why we can't leave be those who choose to.

apparently the vale has to do with the woman not being seen by anyone other than her husband and close members of her family.

Of course it's not racist, Islam is not a race, it's a religion. And I shall refrane from further comment for now, except to say ... I wonder if Dominicconnour and peacedove will be along shortly to fan the fires.

I think it is good to have this conversation at least and to address some of the issues of living in a multi cultural society. Living in a largely Asian community I find it quite off putting at times and it shuts me out as much as anything else.

I am against any sort of religious symbolism in schools for example and think that in my kids last school which was 90% Asian it gave mixed messages to my dds when many of the girls would not wear skirts or take part in sports without covering their bodies.Many of the mothers wore the veil and it is difficult to even smile at someon if you have no idea if they are smiling back.

batters he could just as easily ask a man to remove sunglasses, chewing gum, a hood or cap though.

Actually think it would be quite rude of anyone to leave those items on when having a meeting with someone.

If he asked the veiled women to remove their veils and gave them the opportunity to refuse and remain veiled I really can't see how anyone could object. If he had insisted or refused to talk to any veiled woman that would have been quite a diferent matter.

My grandparents generation would have thought it rude and disrespectful for a man not to take his hat off in a house. Clothing had more significance - my granny never left the house without gloves even in hot weather and almost always wore a hat. She saw it as improper to do otherwise (gawd knows what she thought of my mum and me!). I think we have lost all the rules of clothing that previous generations followed so the wearing of burkas does seem strange.

I can't help thinking that to be able to talk only with words without people reading your involuntary body language and facial expressions might make you feel more in control.

Well I'm going to stick my neck out and say it IS in a very large part about female subordination. Crikey, how can it not be? How many of us would choose to fully veil ourselves??
I offer some extreme examples here of where this can lead, but anyway, here goes. I met an Iranian dissident a few weeks ago who told me his sister back in Iran was arrested for not wearing her veil in public. Her mother was told to collect her a week or so later. Happy to be getting her daughter back she rushed off, to be taken to a room full of bodies. She'd been executed for 'having a big mouth'

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has written some interesting articles too on the subject of the fully veiled. She's been approached by at least one terrified and cowed woman who showed her what lay underneath - the scars and bruises of horrific beatings at the hands of her husband. Alibhai-Brown gets frequent death threats for daring to mention that this goes on. And please, nobody tell me that domestic abuse goes on in the white community too - that goes without saying.

And yet we tiptoe around this subject! It needs to be debated without kowtowing to those who think it's 'culturally sensitive' to do so or those who throw out the platitude that it's all done out of choice. Well, sod that. As women, I think we owe it to those who can't talk about it for fear of retribution.

agree totally gf. I personally think that religion is a private thing and I think that it should remain as such. I think it is wrong to have religion shoved in your face in any way, and that extends to bible bashers shouting on the streets and jw's knocking at my door.

I think that if you practice a certain faith then that is great and if that is what you're happy with then I think you could have a very fulfilled life, but I think that faith should be practiced in the privacy of your own home or in the establishments intended for it, i.e. churches/mosqs/temples etc.

I think it is all about his political career.
Jack Straw announced his ambition to be deputy leader at the same time as making those comments about muslim women wearing the veil. How long has he been mp of Blackburn, and he never mentioned this before?
Did "community relations" never bother him before?
How does wearing the veil interfere with community relations?
If this is supposed to open up some sort of debate, what exactly is that debate? fashion? the role of women? Islam? Relations between non-muslims and muslims in wider society?
Then other questions need to be asked:
Did not the criminalising of muslim youth(i.e terror legislation, which did not solve any problems ime) do more to hinder community relations than clothing?
Did not the alienation of the muslim community via the foreign policyof this country, and then accusing any muslim that dares to speak out against said foreign policy of being a terrorist, not cause a problem with community relations?
If we are going to debate this honestly then lets discuss the real issues, instead of picking on a bunch of muslim women who choose to dress in a certain way.

I find it a bit odd that someone would imagine that my dh would be possessed by carnal desires if he could see a womans nose and chin.

Wearing a veil does not make you any more modest or any more devout IMO. People should have the choice to dress as they choose but I have the choice not to want to chat to someone who will not (visibly) smile at me.

Lots of ladies in my area wear the full burka , and when I see them with their babies and toddlers I think how hard it must be not to share a spontaneous smile with you child.

It must be really important to them to forgo that.

Possibly it is my problem if I find it hard to communicate with somebody who wears a veil. But sounds like I am not the only person who finds it hard to communicate with somebody whose face is hidden. So that makes it a problem for the person who wears a veil also.