Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

there is extreme hate in this country from all races. White friends I was a university with were horrified when, in our second year they rented a house in a predominantly asian area and were subjected to racial abuse. Just as many ethnic friends I have have been subjected to racial abuse. racial abuse have even been between racial groups. the need for many people to keep seperate whether they be white black pink green or purple and only foster further segregation. respect for others does not need to mean betrayal of beliefs or a loss of culture but unfortunately not enought people think like this.

unfortunately the extreme hater have the loudest voices even though they are often the minority.

Gs but were all Catholics asked ot apologise for the actions of a few people sharign their faith. Yes my kowledge of the IRA is rudimentary (at best).

Of course there's extreme hate in this country and extreme fear as there is in any country from some individuals. BUT this country has shown record tolerance of and acceptance of other cultures welcoming people in a way no other country appears able. Fuzzy you need to recognise this because tolerance works both ways.

My children are scared by people with veils and long robes. Emotionally I am too, though intellectually I force myself to crush the fear in order to respect others. When Jack Straw said what he said I thought, Fuck it! Yeah. It is rude. So is wearing sunglasses indoors when someone's trying to talk to you.

I don't care what religeon anyone has and I don't expect them to give a flying fuck about my spiritual beliefs but it's common courtesy not to bhe in heavy disguise when you're talking to people who are open to you.

I haven't read any of this thread, but somehow yesterday I lost the plot. I don't understand (and don't understand in an ignorant way) why the women can take them off when asked to. But keep them on otherwise.

There! My lack of education is reavealed to all and sundry.

fuzzywuzzy
Where do you perceive there to be extreme hate on this thread?

I'm in N.I Loads of good community development work has come about with single identity work, ie building peoples confidence in their own culture because until people feel secure there is no point trying to force them to integrate.

Fuzzywuzzy, I have read many references about Aisha's marriage to Muhmammed (all from Islamic scholars may I add).

The most racist person I have ever come across is a Muslim man who works at my place. He reviles black people particularly - I would not be surprised if he supports what is going on in Darfur.

My mum is German and came to this country 2 years after WW2. I think the British population had good reason for hate at that time, but it has never been shown to her. She was welcomed into society here and she has embraced it and sees herself as English. Why do people want to create their own subcultures?

The only reason we are scared of people wearing veils is because of the MEDIA who tells us that veils = Muslim = terrorists.

We don't run screaming every time we see a Nun, do we? Or someone wearing a motorcycle helmet? Or all wrapped up for the winter?

I too have heard a muslim chap where I work talking about a b b* and I was really shocked, actually.

I might run screaming from a man in a motorbike helmet if I was in the bank. I think you need to consider how appropriate dress is in different situations.

Speedymama I cannot speak for the man at ytour workplace havig never met him.

But I persoanlly don't kow any muslim person who reviles a person on the basis of their colour. I have seen plenty of Black Muslim in my time, and white oens and chinese and of many other backgrounds. Colour is meaninglesss in Islam.

The first man to make the call to prayer (which is considered a very high post), was a black man named Billal, he was an abysinian slave who was freed by a wealthy Muslim as he had suffered much under his non-muslim master.

Moaningpaper my children aren't scared of veil wearers because of the media and nor am I. I'm scard of anyone who hides themselves be it behind a mask, balaclava, whatever. It's natural to be scared of this.

As I said before I've gone to great lengths to sublimate this fear because I want to be inclusive and not offend and blah de blah but actually, I'd rather be honest now and say, like Jack Straw said, it's alienating. It's bad for community. Wear it if you like, it's not against the law - BUT be aware that it is alienating and that this is part of the choice you are making when you wear a veil.

Yes, fuzzywuzzy (your posting name, interestingly, is a term of racial abuse where I come from) Catholics (particularly Irish Catholics) have been discriminated against in Britain for a long time, with the usual cocktail of fear and contempt, and wild assumptions made about their culture and belief systems. I'm suprised you don't know this, it's fairly common knowledge. When my family migrated here, and for several decades afterwards, it was usual for boarding houses/hotels/rooms for let to bear signs saying "no Irish". My father was openly abused both for being Irish and for being Catholic at his Protestant grammar school in the 1960's. I've been subjected to abuse for being a Catholic myself, in fact, quite recently. I left a job because of it.

I agree broadly with Spidermama's post. I wouldn't be happy to hold a conversation with a man wearing a balaclava or a helmet with a visor. I feel much the same way about women wearing the full veil. It is antisocial and unnecessary IMO. I wouldn't parade myself around Riyadh in a miniskirt and bra top either, although I must admit that there would be an element of fear in that decision, as well as respect for the cultural sensitivities of the indigenous culture.

Fuzzy, I think that Catholics were asked to distence themselves from the actions of the IRA, yes I think they were. I can also remember Catholic Priests being criticised for not making it sufficiently plain that they did not support violence.

And the same was true for the Protestants and the 'Loyalist' paramilitary groups.

I don't see how it can be racist for a man to say 'I find it hard to talk to you when you are fully veieled, can you take it off please?' He has made it quite clear that if they say no he accepts this.

Are we saying that non-muslim views and wishes can never be expressed, no matter how politly and respectfully? Are we saying that Muslim sensibilites have precidence at all times, in all circumstances and none of them can ever be questioned?

Do we really want the Clothes Police as well as all the other nanny state crap that the Labour Government inflicts on us?

mp, but nuns are not fully vieled, they do not cover the face. What JS was asking was that the full face covering should be removed if you are talking to someone, if that is possible. He specificaly said this does not extent to covering the hair.

In 2002, 15 girls were killed in a fire at their school in Mecca. Saudi Arabia's religious police, the muttawa, would not let the girls out of the building because they were not wearing their concealing outer garments because it was a women only building. The muttawa preferred the girls' death to transgression of Islamic law - to the extent that they actually fought with the police and firemen who were trying to open the school's doors. This is the logic of extremists.

I think we should thank Jack Straw for being brave enough to allow us all to discuss this subject openly. I am tired of people being branded racist.

I would like fuzzywuzzy to respond with her personal reaction to speedymama's last post, if possible. I find it so shocking - which is obviously the point of it - that I would be very interested to hear a reasoned and intelligent response from a Muslim woman.

I agree figroll. I think it's really important to discuss these community matters without fear of being branded racist.

I was brought up with a crushing guilt about being English and almost a terror of ever having a racist thought or making a racist remark. Ridiculous!

I found myself in the park the other day trying to tell my three year old he was wring to be scared of the women in black peeping through slits. Then I thought, hang on, he's got a point.

The white middle classes are their own worst enemies. This attitude has created the very problems it was trying to avoid.

'wrong' obviously. Not 'wring'. (Bloody fool!)

You can see who hasn't got children to pick up from school - it has gone all quiet in here! Mine come home on their own - latch key kids.

Speedmama there are extremists in any religion.

The Pope recently made a saint of a woman who refused chemotherapy because she was pregnant and it might have harmed her baby, and then she died when the baby was born.

Now that's a LOVELY example to women, isn't it?