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Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 17/10/2014 08:10

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

OP posts:
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12
TheHoneyBadger · 31/10/2014 21:08

start a thread on it then.

Shakshuka · 31/10/2014 21:23

This thread is called Israel Palestine. No need to start a separate thread to discuss ummm Israeli or Palestinian issues.

Why don't you start a thread excusively for Israel bashing since that's all you're interested in?

Yruapita · 01/11/2014 00:20

Treatment of Palestinian refugees by Lebanon is awful. The thing is, Israel cannot point its finger at Lebanon when it is instrumental in creating the situation.

Just what is bibi playing at? He has single handedly ripped Isral's reputation to shreds and lost some old friends. I cannot see a two state solution, perhaps one state is the only way forward. The apartheid must be fought.

TheHoneyBadger · 01/11/2014 05:56

it's the israeli-palestinian-conflict actually. it's right there!

i would really appreciate if you would stop with the bashing and telling me what i'm interested in. you are not in my head. you are free to express your opinions about the topic, and express them strongly, but about the topic rather than posters would be good.

Shakshuka · 01/11/2014 14:07

I'm guessing you meant the real apartheid in Lebanon must be fought.

Indeed it must.

Still no explanation as to why 'Shiite' is a racist term? No? Didn't think so.

TheHoneyBadger · 01/11/2014 17:05

why do you have to be so aggressive and attacking shak? it's like you're sat here ready to deride and be rude to anyone who posts a comment. is everyone supposed to go away and stop talking about it to avoid having to take abuse from you?

Shakshuka · 01/11/2014 18:09

Just want an explanation as to why shiite is grotesquely racist.

People in glass houses and all that :-)

Shakshuka · 01/11/2014 18:19

Oh, and an explanation from you as to why saying that Europe has a.poor track record.in protecting Jews (an historical fact) is extremely offensive to war orphans from ww2 would be appreciated.

If you and yruapita post bonkers (and offensive) stuff like that, you should expect to be called on it.

I'm sorry you don't like my posting style thb. I find you aggressive and rude as well (and hypocritical!). But this thread isn't about posting style so really I couldn't care less if you like it or you don't.

Ive been called racist,.Nazi etc. You yourself accused me of apparently displacing palestinians (even though i live in the us and.legally bought my house - and indeed my own grandparents were ethnically cleansed from where.they.lived ). Kind of offesnive terms. Whatever. Says a lot more about the poster imo. So, really, please try to say something constructive or meaningful

Yruapita · 01/11/2014 23:28

Thb, its best not to engage with shakshuka.

Considering her grandparents went through harrowing experiences and were ethnically cleansed, she still enjoys watching Palestinian mothers being ethnically cleansed in what she termed roof parties. Its beyond belief.

Even Israel's Best Friends Understand That It Is Disconnecting From Reality

Shakshuka · 02/11/2014 02:41

No sorry, wrong again, yruapita.

I get no pleasure from any suffering, Palestinian or otherwise, mothers or not mothers.

Nor have I displaced anyone a la the honey badger.

Still no.explanation as to why Shiite is racist? No? Didn't think so.

And of course no explanation as to why the uk Muslim community is so obsessed with Israel even.though you had one ready but found the phrase Pakistani Shiite so grotesquely racist you couldn't possibly explain it any more. How convenient Smile

I think there was an article written about the abhorrent

Shakshuka · 02/11/2014 02:44

Oops posted too soon.

This article I think explains part of the reason why the Uk Muslim community obsesses about Israel and the Palestinians.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community

TheHoneyBadger · 02/11/2014 07:56

uk muslim community is likely to be highly interested in israel for the same reasons people in the uk who care about human rights and the upholding of international law are - we've been round this circle tons of times. when uk politicians who are supposed to represent their electorate stand up and give support for murdering children in their beds and other war crimes, eg. collective punishment, british citizens are understandably outraged.

also in a multi cultural society such as our own where a lot of work and investment goes into trying to create social cohesion we have vested interests in international events where one group, represented in our own population, is exploited and mistreated by another on a hugely public stage. when the government here back that mistreatment and are seen to side with a group regardless of the facts it creates problems within our communities too, of course it does.

whether you like it or not the behaviour of israel towards palestinians over the decades and the ignoring of it by western governments, and sometimes outright support of it, is a breeding ground for radicalisation. radicalisation comes partly when people feel they have zero stake in society, when the powers they see running that society seem not to represent them in the slightest and there seems to be no recognised way to be heard or represented.

when we endlessly have politicians failing to represent their views of their population you get radicalisation or disenfranchisement. if you are a part of a group eg. jewish community, muslim community, white working class poor, etc often that radicalisation falls in upon your tribal identity and there'll be those who are there ready to exploit that - in the muslim community that's where young males particularly become vulnerable to those who prey upon that disenfranchisement to exploit it for their own use. we literally have tons of programmes trying to intervene in that process in schools, in community groups, in police units etc. hence me saying we are heavily invested in this stuff.

lots of british people are massively concerned about the situation in israel be they muslim or not. and just making blanket statements as you have about muslims being violent people or not nice people like 'us', or snakes or whatever else has been thrown at a whole diversity of nations and people on this thread and in the israeli press and politics achieves nothing if your commitment is to social cohesion and creating a peaceful society. it serves an ethnic cleansing objective or one of trying to totally crush a people within your borders but that's not a route most people want to go down here.

QnBoudi · 02/11/2014 09:53

Mehdi Hasan, author of the article cited by shakshuka, actually gives his view on the 'singling out' of israel: m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5591954.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/11/2014 10:14

headline says it all: We Single Israel Out Because We in the West Are Shamefully Complicit in Its Crimes

but how many times do we have to say this? questions aren't asked for answers it seems because the answer is never heard and we always come back around to the same questions.

QnBoudi · 02/11/2014 11:03

And the answers aren't heard because...? Fascinating and very moving talk by Alison Weir about media bias and the Israel lobby in the us: www.gilad.co.UK/writings/alison-weir-the-hidden-history-of-how-the-us-was-used-to-cre.html.

QnBoudi · 02/11/2014 11:20

Oh and the criticism she makes of media bias is based on analysis not vapid claims of 'Israel bashing' and 'antisemitism'. Her book is meticulously researched and scrupulously referenced in support of her statements.

Unlike the several sites posted earlier by shakshuka complaining about anti Israel bias, the vast majority of which were entirely groundless invective. True, two made a half hearted effort to blind us with science, referring to the 80% who agreed on the bias, but considering this was a poll oif jews, what does that actually mean?? Only one of the pieces listed even attempted to proffer any evidence for its assertions, but these were playing the kind of 'balancing numbers game' Weir highlighted, by complaining that far more articles were written on x than on y. They did make one point, which I will concede is valid in being 'anti Israel', namely the use of the term 'freedom fighter' as opposed to 'terrorist'. However, given that most of the world believes israel is illegally occupying Palestine and the Palestinians have the right to resist, I'd say this was the most appropriate selection of the 2 equally loaded terms.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 02/11/2014 11:22

just making blanket statements as you have about muslims being violent people or not nice people like 'us', or snakes ...

Sadly, once again you destroy your own credibility - and any argument you might have had - with scurrilous remarks like this

If you believe I'm wrong, maybe you'll prove it by linking to any post where Shakshuka has stated this as her personal view?

TheHoneyBadger · 02/11/2014 11:38

why not complete that sentence in your quote puzzled. people can read you know. and this isn't cnn - people have enough of an attention span to scroll up two posts to see the context.

if you think that shak and others haven't posted inflammatory islamophobic comments on these threads i suggest you re-read them.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 02/11/2014 11:59

I have re-read them, thb - and while I understand you won't necessarily agree with others' views, that doesn't necessarily make them "inflammatory" or "islamophobic" however much you'd like to pretend they are

Yet more back-pedalling (this time about "context") is hardly convincing, but as I've said, if there really is any credibility in what you've said I'm sure you'll be able to demonstrate it by linking to the relevant posts ... ??

Puzzledandpissedoff · 02/11/2014 12:27

Come to think of it, thb, there's a better route open to you, should you wish to take it. I imagine we can all agree that genuinely inflammatory or islamophobic remarks would be completely unacceptable and have no place on a public forum - so why not report these claimed remarks to the moderators?

If there really is any credibility in your claims, I'm sure we'll see any number of posts deleted ... won't we??

Shakshuka · 02/11/2014 13:45

Qnboudi

I agree with mehdi hassan's article in the sense that Israel should be holding.itself to higher standards as a liberal western democracy.

He also has a point about the uniqueness of Israel's situation. But you could also argue that Russia and. CChechnya are unique.

To be honest, the intense interest in Israel isn't necessarily bad for Israel. If it forces Israel to reach a peace deal with the Palestinians then fine.

I still think it's hypocritical though. I was listening to a debate at the UN. The Syrian delegate got up and started ranting about human rights in Israel. I mean,.seriously?

Regarding the media,.there are.far more.links showing anti Israel bias. As I said, I don't buy it but just as many people think the media is biased against Israel. I personally think most claims of bias are because people don't like what they say.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/11/2014 18:10

back peddling? noting that the statement without the rest of the sentence was out of context? odd.

and no comment on the whole of that post explaining and answering a question from the context of british society except to go ha! you said she said and you didn't prove it, ha! really???

this is why the answers never get accepted and the same questions come round over and over - because an answer isn't sought, answers aren't read or acknowledged or responded to - there's only nit picking and attack and smear.

maybe phrased the sentence badly (the only one you bothered to respond to at all and then only the phrase you picked out from it) but i wasn't meaning to say the poster said all of those things but that she and others others on the thread and israeli politicians and media making blanket statements about palestinians or arabs does nothing to build social cohesion.

feel free to respond to what i've said about why it matters to british people in general or to british muslims. please at least note i've answered the question again so that it doesn't get asked YET AGAIN.

Shakshuka · 02/11/2014 18:25

You directly accuse me of displacing people but won't say who I displaced.

You accuse me of islamophobia but won't actually quote anything islamophobic about what I wrote.

You say that me saying that French Jews are nervous about anti semitism because of Europe's poor record about protecting Jews is highly offensive to any war orphans who may be reading this but wont explain the logic.

And Yruapita accuses me of being a psychopathic racist, rubbing my hands in glee at the thought of Palestinian mothers (always mothers or children) dying and going around using Shiite as an apparent curse word (maybe it is in her world, not in mine) .

Bonkers!

TheHoneyBadger · 02/11/2014 18:38

dear god shaks - 'you' doesn't necessarily mean you personally. it can be used in the general sense re: you can't go out in the rain in a bikini and expect not to get wet. you can't complain if you punch someone in the face and they aren't your friend anymore. etc.

it must be deliberate because i can't believe you didn't see that?

Shakshuka · 02/11/2014 18:45

So which collective you were you referring to exactly when you said 'you displaced people' especially considering your objection to any kind of collective responsibility?