Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[AndHarry]

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

the bbc is not AS biased as american news outlets for example. that does not make it 'unbiased'.

france traditionally goes down the assimiliation route rather than multi-cultural approach to immigration and pluralism. the uk is pretty unusual in it's latter approach and much criticised for it by some parties. be you muslim or jew or whatever in france the pressure is to assimilate - they banned the wearing of certain muslim garb for example which i can't see ever happening here and have been accused frequently of being oppressive to their muslim population.

the cultural context is important.

also it might be worth showing slightly more respect for the hundreds of thousands of people in europe who actually died to overthrow the nazi regime and liberate the jews. whatever your beliefs about how politicians handled it, whether they acted soon enough etc etc hundreds of thousands of virtual children died in trenches fighting hitler.

the 'track record' can be found on monuments in every town with the names of the boys and men they lost.

I read this piece from the BBC today about the people fleeing the violence in the Middle East and trying to get to Europe on boats, focusing on a family from Gaza. Heartbreaking. If anyone's into writing to their MP, please think about writing to them about the new policy of deliberately allowing would-be asylum seekers to drown.

The Palestinians and the Israelis have such an intertwined history that it's impossible to separate one side's issues from the other's. The Palestinians do not have a dynamic, pragmatic and inspiring leadership base. However, how much of that is due to the horrific conditions in which Palestinian children are brought up, in permanent fear of the Other that is the Israelis?

WRT to the deal offered in 2008, Kofi Annan said that it was less good than is commonly claimed.

AndHarry - if the 2008 offer wasn't all that good, why didn't the Palestinians make a counter offer, rather than just reject it.

Why should the BBC or us news agencies be biased against Palestinians?

You just don't like the fact that they don't go along with your extremist line that the Israelis have no legitimate claims or needs and that the Palestinians are just innocent victims who have no need to take any responsibility for their actions.

I'm glad, qnboudi, that you agree thatthe fFrench media isn't biased and that you just posted that article for general interest. Generally I say if I don't agree with an article.

I have absolutely no trouble believing that the pro Palestinian complaints were more aggressive and threatening if that's what the bbc reported. You just don't like what they say.

Thb

You really are quite sweetly naive if you believe that Britain (and Russia and the us) fought Nazi Germany in order to save the Jews of Europe. Bless.

Why don't you read a bit about Vichy France to understand why French Jews are getting twitchy rather than getting on your high horse about.disrespect (which is starting to get as bonkers as claiming that saying Pakistani Shiite is grotesque racism a la yruapita)

Andharry

The Palestinians do have some great. potential leaders but they're not able to rise up.

Israel has hugely impacted Palestinian society but the lack of strong leadership is not all Israel's fault. It's been a facet of Palestinian society for a long time and one of the. key rreasons they lost in 1947-8 when they were expected to win.

you are being immensely rude.

i'm talking about individual men giving up their lives and requesting you show a small amount of respect for them. many of whom were 17 years of age. i thought you might want to know that your post was quite offensive to people reading this thread who could for example have grown up without a father thanks to them volunteering to fight in WWII. some of them were jewish if that helps makes their deaths mean something to you.

Saying that Europe has not got a good track record at protecting Jews is not rude or disrespectful to anyone (its a fact - Europe is soaked with Jewish blood and it began long before the Nazis) just as saying that Pakistani Shiites are an oppressed minority is not racist.

I think you're looking to be outraged and offended. Do you honestly think that Britain or Russia fought Germany to save Jews? Sure, it may have been an added bonus but you are living in lala land if you think it was the main motivation.

But your illogical response has given me some insight into why you think the way you do about the Israel Palestine conflict. Clearly everything is black and white in your world. Brave Britain, sacrificing its own soldiers to save (ungrateful) European Jewry (let's not quibble over six million who died - THAT'S the track record!), pure as the driven snow Palestinian victims versus evil, satanic, Nazi-like Israel. Gotcha.

Surely we were told earlier that nobody must speak of "blood" in relation to Jews?

And, on reflection, THB, I think it is you who is being incredibly disrespectful to the memories of those who died. To use those deaths to 'score points' on an internet forum is really beyond the pale.

Saying that French Jews are nervous about anti semitism given Europe's history with Jews has fuck all to do with British soldiers fighting Germany and/or Japan. One thing is only tangentially connected with the other. You're either incredibly naive or cynically using their deaths to be 'offended' - just like yruapita was 'outraged' by Pakistani Shiite to avoid answering the question I had put. Very convenient - and Israel is accused of deflecting!!!

Britain did not fight Germany to liberate European Jews. Fact.

Russia did not fight Germany to liberate European Jews. Fact.

The French Vichy collaborated with the Nazis to deport Jews and even took the initiative on their own. Fact.

My late grandfather fought in WW2. He'd be offended by you using their sacrifices in this way. Disgraceful.

Going off topic on the tangent set THB
Research has shown that the BBC and foreign office actually suppressed reports of the extermination of European Jewry since they felt that it'd demoralize the soldiers if they thought they might be fighting to save Jews....
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/why-the-bbc-ignored-the-holocaust-antisemitism-in-the-top-ranks-of-broadcasting-and-foreign-office-staff-led-to-the-news-being-suppressed-says-stephen-ward-1462664.html

Hope you're not too offended by this THB.

Funny that there's evidence of historical bias at the bbc but no conceivable reason for it to be biased now.

An ever so slightly biased media event with shimon peres at Colgate university (apparently for real) www.mondoweiss.net/2014/10/question-settlements-university. Plus an amazing bit of spin (tobias ellwood) on illegal settlements being a 'distraction' from 'the bigger picture' in the house of commons: www.palestinecampaign.org/parliament-update-27-28-october/.

qnboudi

I think it's not hard to understand that the BBC and its role in 1940s wartime Britain is different to the BBC today.

That said, many people think that the anti-semitic feelings in the BBC continue until today and that the BBC is anti-Israeli. I could also provide you with many many links from various websites about how the media is biased against Israel. I don't really give them much credence, the way I don't give much credence to your links (because palestinecampaign.org may be slightly biasedl!!) most of the mainstream news agencies (perhaps with the exception of Fox news) are objective on the whole or try to be, in my opinion, even if I don't always agree with them.

I notice that you found that complaints of anti-Israeli bias to the BBC are part of a cunning and deceitful plan. Rather than perhaps people truly believing that the BBC is biased and for the exact same reasons that you do, because they give legitimacy to the other side, their experience and claims. But, no, according to you complaints of anti-Israel bias are cunning and deceitful (interesting language to use) whereas those of anti-Palestinian bias are apparently, in contrast, heartfelt and truthful (even though the BBC clearly found them threatening and menacing!).

Here we go. Short search for all the claims of anti-israel bias in the BBC (and the wider media). As I said, i don't buy it personally. I think most news agencies try to be objective on the whole. But if we're linking to articles claiming bias, there are plenty on the anti-Israel side as well.
Here's a little sample, happy reading...
www.jpost.com/Israel/Watchdog-BBC-biased-against-Israel
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2193845/Why-wont-BBC-come-clean-bias-Israel--moral-country-deserves-support.html
www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/8700047/Widow-takes-on-BBC-over-Israel-bias.html
twitchy.com/2014/07/27/fogged-with-hate-you-wont-believe-the-bbcs-latest-example-of-anti-israel-bias/
www.thecommentator.com/article/5097/is_the_bbc_really_pro_israel
www.thecommentator.com/article/4240/it_s_not_bbc_bias_against_israel_it_s_hate
www.thecommentator.com/article/3294/nearly_80_percent_of_uk_jewish_community_sees_bbc_bias_against_israel
markhumphrys.com/bbc.html
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4370127,00.html
www.timesofisrael.com/in-front-of-cnn-hundreds-protest-anti-israel-media-bias/

And on another note, there is a fabulous film called 'The Gatekeepers' which interviews six of the previous heads of the Israel Secret Service. It's available now on iplayer for another 11 days.

Well worth watching if you have any interest in the conflict, whatever your views. Each one, including the mega bastard Avraham Shalom who is almost the stereotype of a spymaster, says that the only way out of the situation is to speak with the Palestinians, whoever may be representing them and that force won't solve anything. And these are not men with whom you'd want to sit down and sing kumbaya.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04lxjbf/storyville-20132014-28-the-gatekeepers#group=p01r5kv9

Are you deliberately misunderstanding my posts? I didn't say any complaints were deceitful or cunning. I said the bBC's presentation of them, discussing 1 highly selective instance of each as if they were totally representative, was deliberately misleading. Of course the Palestine campaign is supportive of one side but if you follow the link you'll see that it gives the transcript from tthe house of commons debate, quite factual.
And please stop accusing me of giving no legitimacy to Israel. That's unfounded and unfair. My instinct is generally to root out facts, instead of just swallowing invective. Imv there is a massive issue with disproportionality, which applies to the re/presentation of both sides as much as it does to the reality of the situation.

Yes, the gatekeepers was fascinating - and scary in equal measure.

Sweden officially recognises palestine. Go Sweden!

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/30/sweden-officially-recognises-state-palestine

despite your continued personal rudeness i will bother to point out (again) that i was talking about the lives of individual people lost and the impacts on their families not 'britain'.

and god knows i'm not a nationalist or patriot. i'm actually against all wars and think none of them are about what they claim to be and all of them only serve the rich but that doesn't mean the lives of actual real people sent in as cannon fodder have to be disrespected.

whatever governments motivations individual men had their own motivations (or zero choice in the case of conscription).

Then why are you disrespecting them THB?

Qnboudi

You said the anti Israel complaints to the bbc were part of a deceitful campaign (not devious, you're right) .
But, as ive shown you, many people also honestly think that the Bbc is biased against Israel.

My opinion is that claims of systematic bias in the bbc from both sides simply represents their entrenched and extreme views and delegitimisation of the claims,.needs and experience of the other.

Depressing article:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4584644,00.html

Neither Abbas nor Netanyahu are in a hurry to negotiate and Obama isn't particularly interested either.

It is interesting that the only thing that pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians agree on is that the BBC is biased.

An aside...

I've been reading that Egypt has started destroying Hamas tunnels from Gaza into Egypt, closed their border crossings with Gaza, stripped 800 Palestinians of their citizenship, are building a 8-mile buffer-zone on the Gaza border of Gaza and are forcing families to evacuate their homes.

There are sure to be demonstrations, boycotts, intense news interest and UN denouncements against Egypt aren't there? Shall we see?

We'll probably hear just as much about it as we do about the real apartheid enforced against Palestinians in Lebanon.

I guess there's only room for one baddy in this story.