Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[AndHarry]

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

BTW totally agree with Yruapita. This selective stomach churning at jewish deaths only is most disturbing.

I agree with you both kareninsgirl and Louise brookes. However, there is absolutely no point posting further on this thread as so many of the posters here can only ever see one point of view.

realistically how can any sane, non racist and genocidal person, expect people to be more shocked by TWO deaths than two thousand?

THB - where did you get the figure of two deaths from? There have been more than two Israeli deaths than that recently (five in the synagogue, including a Druze policeman who had recently become a father) and some people have been killed Palestinians driving into pedestrians.

I don't think it should be a case of having to decide which ones to be angry about, or which ones to be more shocked about. Personally, I am angry with Israel for its numerous human rights violations, settlement expansion and the huge civilian death toll it inflicted in Gaza, which as Yruapita said is hardly going to make the Palestinians friendly, but I also condemn attacks on Israeli civilians. I didn't interpret the above comments as people's stomachs only churning at certain deaths, more that some people commented that Israel's atrocities seem to be the only ones to be mentioned on this thread.

I don'thear anyone applauding any murders at any point. But i'm concerned that there's a perception that iIsrael is making efforts to contain the violence. Here are 2 pieces which both point out extremism is in fact tolerated, if not even supported officially in Israel.

thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/199475-kahanes-legacy goes into a fair degree of detail at just how extremist and racist a number of powerful senior establishment figures are.

mondoweiss.net/2013/07/murderer-baruch-goldstein points out that, far from the state taking action against extremist displays, settlers celebrating goldstein's 'martyrdom' are "accompanied by a massive show of force by Israeliarmy troops". It also states that the massacre triggered the first hamas suicide bombings. Things just cannot be looked at in isolation.

For those who throw up their hands and complain others won'tsee two sides, please feel free to offer any arguments as to why it's so wrong to sympathise with the oppressed, dispossessed and dehumanised. Imo the only 'counter arguments' ever offered are whataboutery/deflection and unsupported accusations of antisemitism or obsessive jew hatred, none of which are ever explained and certainly aren't true. Posting offensive links isn't helping your cause i might add.

Oh and the 10,000 who visited goldstein's grave was the count in 2000. I dread to think what it might be now, but the celebrations have been reported as continuing - both this and last year.again, the state of Israel permits these 'celebrations' whilst imposing curfews on Palestinians. How can that be right??? Just put the boot on the other foot a moment...

Halfdrunk, i agree that civillian death is a tragedy, no matter who that civilian may be.

for too long, the Palestinians have been portrayed as 'savages' by the Israelis. What exactly is the collective crime of the Palestinians? That they didnt want to leave their homes? Israel has absolutely cornered them. Why then are Israelis so shocked when Palestinians fight back? when someone has been oppressed to such an extent that they have nothing to lose anymore, when someone is so psychologically affected by all this turmoil in their life, inflicted upon them by a state which regards them as inferior, what choice is that person left with other than to exist as an oppressed dehumanised entity or seek 'revenge' before they die?

An Israeli supporter made this comment:

"the large majority of Palestinians from every walk of life who constantly call for the destruction of the Jews"

Its this sort of BS that was fed to the world for decades. Had it not been for the social media, Israel would have continued feeding the world the usual BS and most would have just accepted their version. the poster is incensed by what she perceives to be large majority of Palestinians calling for the destruction of jews, yet the reality on the ground is that Israel has no qualms in systematically destroying Palestinians. It is this hypocrisy that disgusts the world.

The Palestinians may suffer for some more time to come at the hands of the apartheid state, I just hope that Israelis wake up soon and reject apartheid before karma bites them on the ass.

i'm an anthropologist originally and remember reading a book called the mountain people by colin turnbull which documents awfully what happens to the human psyche and behaviour when you displace a people and leave them short of resources and without hope.

you have in gaza a people suffering with ptsd, constantly exposed to violence and destruction and maltreatment, deprived of resources to rebuild, constantly living on a knife edge. the fact that that creates desperate and disturbed behaviour and suicidal ideation and a need to fight back in any way they can should surely come as no surprise. the answer surely in a sane world is fairly clear - keep ramping up the abuse and violence and degradation and shortages and destruction and things will get worse and worse.

there's that saying of don't back a rat into a corner. you can't keep people in a constant state of threat and deprivation and grief and trauma and not expect to see the worst of human behaviour erupt from those conditions. it is a credit to a hell of a lot of palestinians that they are still working for peace, still trying to hold together families, care for the elderly etc. those 'natural' human behaviours are often eradicated in people and groups with far less trauma and inhumanity than the palestinians have been subjected to.

i do not support hamas, i do not celebrate any deaths let alone those of civilians however i am able to distinguish between the deliberate brutal actions of a state with full license and freedom and independence and tons of resources and a massive military against an occupied people and those of desperate individuals and groups arising within that occupied people and fighting back.

there is a difference and that difference is recognised in international law. it's not just an opinion of some woolly mn'ers - it is international law.

Yruapita and honeyb have both laid it out very clearly: thank you. If people need more corroboration that there's been a paradigm shift on how the situation is viewed and that it's not just a few loons on mn, these 2 articles make many of the same points.
www.mondoweiss.net/2014/11/british-onslaught-ambassador
www.972mag.com/is-the-nyts-roger-cohen-deliberately-misleading-his-readers-99062/
Stand out quote for me: "i don't stand for (the Israeli) stance any more". You could add the rather aggressive israeli response as an afterthought: " get used to it!"

For crying out loud. www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=741632 - settler deliberately runs over a Palestinian. Was he shot? His house demolished? Impunity is the watchword.

That's terrible QnBoudi. I hope the driver is caught but I don't hold out much hope.

Yruapita and QnBoudi - you are the most notable posters on this (and previous) threads.

You obviously have an agenda of how you would like the future to roll out for Israel and the Palestinians. Do you want Israel annihilated and all the jews placed elsewhere? What, in your ideal world, would be the best outcome for the Palestinians.

Actually curious.

i'm just a little non notable thing me but i'd say the outcome most of us have in mind is for international law to be followed and for war crimes to stop.

does that count as an 'agenda'?

Londongirl "Do you want Israel annihilated"

Did you invent this idea yourself, or have you seen somebody on the thread advocating it?

But it is a pertinent question from LondonGirl33 - if you are care for the plight of one displaced people (the Palestinians), do you want the Jews to be displaced elsewhere?

Real answers, not sarcasm, would be welcome.

However, I don't think the question is what would be the best outcome for the Palestinians. It should be what is the best possible outcome for both these two nations. It's not a good result for any one side as long as the other side is in dire straits, as recent history has shown.

my answer wasn't sarcasm. i would like to see international law upheld and war crimes ceased and those that have already been committed dealt with.

Londongirl

You obviously have an agenda of how you would like the future to roll out for Israel and the Palestinians. Do you want Palestine annihilated and all the Palestinians placed elsewhere? What, in your ideal world, would be the best outcome for the Israelis?

I haven't 'invented' any idea. My question was simply that, a question.

ok then

Did you think of this question spontaneously, or have you seen somebody on the thread advocating your idea?

Why is it so difficult to give a straight answer? come on, you must have given it some thought and I'm curious too.

yes indeed, Londongirl. Do you want Palestine annihilated and all the Palestinians placed elsewhere? come on.

piglet John, I was addressing you, as well you know. you have had 7 whole threads to formulate an idea of how you would like the future to look.

Are you indeed.

I noticed Londongirl asking two people a question, but not answering the question I asked her.

How about you? Do you want Palestine annihilated and all the Palestinians placed elsewhere?

I don't want anyone annihilated.

I want peace.

perhaps you will answer now considering you were actually asked first piglet?

It's difficult to suggest a solution without stating the problem it's trying to solve. The fact that the state of israel was instituted as a result of a UN process that was fiercely manipulated by Zionist activists, against the wishes of the Arab states and in direct contradiction of the UN's own stated adherence to principles of national self-determinism, in large part because of the west's sense of guilt and pity/desire to compensate the jews for the holocaust all the while creating a wrong against another innocent population is the eternal elephant in the room.

Sami Moukaddem, in his film www.palestine-israel-problem.com/, points out the falsity of the idea that "it's all very complicated" and boils the whole thing down to a very simple solution: equality. One of the interviewees in this inspirational and positive film (and there are many others, including Gideon levy, jeff halper and ilan pappe) puts it this way, more or less. The west created Israel and also international law. It's not acceptable to uphold one but not the other.

What I really liked about the film is the reminder that as civilians, we don't have to sit around waiting and hoping for our (corrupt and self-serving) governments to fix things. And moukaddem's line that just by talking about this, we are doing something actively to help is quite liberating. Imagine the 30 degree movement (leaning forward to write on this forum - you'll have to watch to know what I'm talking about! ) is doing something much more constructive than it often feels.

Keep the posts coming. BDS all the way. Equality should be the objective. Surely the pro Israelis won't object to that??? So, how about recognising statehood, ending the siege/occupation, ensuring equal treatment (of extremists as well as ordinary people!), sharing resources proportionately and offering compensation for property damaged/taken for starters? (I trust no one interprets any of those ideas as 'annihilation'... )