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Conservative Carswell defects to UKIP

999 replies

Isitmebut · 28/08/2014 13:46

Modernizer Carwell won the new Clacton seat in 2010 with a large majority, heavily influenced by Ukip deciding not to stand a candidate themselves – so he has found a natural home with those that have a totally anti EU stance, but seems to forget that Ukip without a parliamentary majority cannot change British law to bring us out.

Claig …… after all your rants about right wing ‘modernizers’, you now own another one – so time for you to ‘jump’ the other way? lol

P.S. His defection was hardly cold, but by 1.30pm Wikipedia had been changed to reflect his defection. Who do you think was in a hurry to reflect his move, Ukip or the Conservatives? lol

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Spinflight · 10/09/2014 16:02

Ok isitme, we'll lay off Cameron himself if it upsets you so much. Don't want you being beastly to your butler or evicting the orphans in a fit of distemper.

You do however keep on banging on about the miserable tories economic record as though you consider it to be indisputable.

Sorry my friend but even when I add ,"In London" to your claims they don't stack up. More than one hundred billion borrowed every year, cuts to services for the plebs, lower standard of living and the trite yet demeaning line that we are all in this together.

Your idea of economic competence is let them eat cake.

"and were a credit to the MP description."

Erm... I don't know how to tell you this without upsetting you again and I do fear for the safety of your manservants. Lets just say that the view from cchq or Fauntleroy court is a little different to that in the country at large....

Isitmebut · 10/09/2014 16:27

Spin ... you do know that when a new Conservative government takes over, the national debt, annual budget deficit, state/private pensions, gold holdings, fat government spending, immigration, a 1 million home shortage, the level of unemployment or any other 'clock', does not default to either ZERO or how they handed it all over in 1997?

As the Labour government were over spending by £157 billion in 2010, tell me again Ukip's answers in 2010 to rebuilding a private sector/manufacturing and the 1.8 mil new jobs since 2010, lowering the annual budget deficit to around £96 billion, lower taxes/higher tax thresholds for the lower paid, setting the State pensions formula at a more attractive level to make up for derisory increases under Labour, freeze Council Tax rises up over 110% under Labour etc etc etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Ukips answer was to sack 1 million public sector workers, around the same local authority workers by taking staff levels back to 1997 numbers, and a Flat Rate Tax of 32p to 'help' the lower paid, or just Ukips Mr Fauntleroy Wheeler????

Maybe when you have the first clue what even drives a sustainable economy, and what damage was done in between 1997 and 2010, you might DESERVE a vote.

P.S Don't worry about dishing it on Cameron, as I say, his record and history will judge him fairly, even if the electorate don't.

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Isitmebut · 10/09/2014 16:29

Claigy, Claigy, Claigy, ....... denial.

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claig · 10/09/2014 16:37

'Don't worry about dishing it on Cameron, as I say, his record and history will judge him fairly, even if the electorate don't'

An article in the Daily Telegraph on Cameron, and there is not even a mention of his "rooftop wind turbine" throughout.

"Breaking news: Cameron now officially even worse than Ted Heath

"By James Delingpole Politics

It requires real talent and serious effort to become the worst Tory prime minister in history. To be honest, I never thought Cameron had it in him. I thought: "Well maybe they're right, all those Tory "insiders" who tap the sides of their noses knowingly and say: 'Don't you worry. He knows what he's doing. He's just positioning himself, that's all. Deep down he's a true blue Eurosceptic small state Tory through and through"

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100112060/breaking-news-cameron-now-officially-even-worse-than-ted-heath/

Isitmebut · 10/09/2014 16:57

Claig ….. Thatcher was unpopular, never had much of a majority and got a State Funeral. Blair swept in on a 147 seat majority to mould the UK exactly how Labour wanted – and now everyone can’t wait to bury him, so clearly breaking an economy with a par-tay punchbowl of spending/debt, makes a PM more popular and taking the punchbowl away and fixing it.

A digital age, means people who can’t count passed past their fingers and toes gets to spread political misinformation over websites and many people don’t know the difference. Bless.

Both Ukip and clueless Labour (as also proved by their 2010 manifesto) have shamelessly just criticised the coalition, when they tackled most of the shit that piled up over 13-years, AFTER the Conservatives left office in 1997 with the fastest growing economy in Europe.

It might even lose Scotland, who have been brainwashed in thinking Conservative's destroy economies, when history and basic observation of what they inherited, shows they fix 'em.

"'No one should weep for Labour if Scotland votes for independence': Former PM John Major says 'divisive' attacks on the Tories have fuelled the nationalist campaign"

• Labour and the SNP 'have fed a divisive narrative that has bitten deep'
• He said it would be 'ironic if Labour lost representation in the Commons'
Comes as Gordon Brown becomes new de-facto leader of the No campaign

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2750517/No-one-weep-Labour-Scotland-votes-independence-Former-PM-John-Major-says-divisive-attacks-Tories-fuelled-nationalist-campaign.html

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Spinflight · 10/09/2014 17:29

" blah... and 2010, you might DESERVE a vote."

Should we ring cchq and ask whether this is the new official Tory party line?

I am well aware that tories believe that the rich should hold all of the political power, to erm... benefit the poor of course. I didn't realise that universal suffrage was something you were looking to repeal, with only those who little lord Fauntleroy considers deserving being allowed to vote.

" A digital age, means people who can’t count passed past their fingers and toes gets to spread political misinformation over websites and many people don’t know the difference."

Where do they grow you people? I know it is somewhere in London...

Isitmebut · 10/09/2014 17:56

Spin ..... again, you show your ignorance of the inconvenient to you facts, and take it to a 'class' or whatever lower intellectual level, proving the point I was making to Claig - so what comes after 10?.

FYI I was 'grown' on a council estate, I admit in a nice part of London, and went to an iffy local Comprehensive school before lifting myself up by working very hard, and while you call "cchq" ask them if they agree with my comment on the other Carswell post on 'Politics', that any Tory similar to Carswell should off now.

"cchq" haven't got a clue who I am, but if you're one of the best Ukip spinners, no wonder they need real Conservative politician/brains to 'upgrade'..

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claig · 10/09/2014 18:14

'A digital age, means people who can’t count passed past their fingers and toes gets to spread political misinformation over websites and many people don’t know the difference'

Then stop doing it!

Spinflight · 10/09/2014 19:55

Well pardon me if I don't give you a big hug and welcome you into the exclusive plebs only club isitme.

I call it as I see it and only the more extreme and chinless of tories would ever hold positions and opinions as extreme as saying some people don't deserve a vote.

No great surprise that you are part of the looney London bubble though.

Indeed hopefully Douglas Carswell's ideas on eDemocracy will be part of Ukip's manifesto enabling thick, unworthy plebs like me to have a greater say in how our country is run.

WetAugust · 10/09/2014 23:26

this Scottish referendum is giving us a very valuable insight into how any referendum on In or Out of Europe would play out. Well get the same scare tactics from the politicians and the same threats by big organisations to leave the UK ( just as the financial institutions have threatened today to move out of Scotland) and the public will buy it and it's game over for any attempt to leave the EU.

It's enough to turn you totally off politics and current affairs and just bury your head in the sand.

But that's what they want isn't it?

Isitmebut · 11/09/2014 00:14

Spin .... re your "I call it as I see it and only the more extreme and chinless of tories would ever hold positions and opinions as extreme as saying some people don't deserve a vote."

And my "A digital age, means people who can’t count passed past their fingers and toes gets to spread political misinformation over websites and many people don’t know the difference. Bless."

FYI whether I said it directly or generalized so not to appear too pointed, I wasn't talking about "people", I was referring to you. Oooops.

Other "people" are not spreading political misinformation and lamely trying to turn others words around within nearly every post.

Other "people" are clearly not only more capable than you to see the many coalition positives since 2010 on what was a shitty inheritance from Labour, they aren't as stupid as to ask someone who does, 'OK, so what have the (Tory) Romans done for us?'. lol

P.S. Re your pathetic attempt at 'labeling', I haven't lived in London for decades - I'm far closer to Clacton than London.

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Spinflight · 11/09/2014 05:23

You are correct WetAugust, with Brown's intervention being the most puzzling aspect.

Something as important as the Union, over three hundred years old, being meddled with at the drop of a pin because the politicians are scared that the people will make a decision they don't like. The whole proposal seems to have been dreamed up on the back of a fag packet yet receives unanimous support from the liblabcon within hours.

Isitmebut · 11/09/2014 12:42

WetAugust/Spinflight …. Again with the pro Ukip/anti establishment political misinformation, used so effectively in Scotland for years and now putting the economic future of ALL of us within the UK in jeopardy - due to a dodgy nationalist leader not facing the facts and consequences of his actions.

Firstly re the Referendum process, it proves you GET ONE with Cameron, and in past individual country EU in/out referendums given BEFORE the EU Lisbon Treaty (signed by Brown on our behalf obviously without one here) it was always TIGHT e.g. 51% to 49%.

In any election there is always more political activity as you get closer to polling day and Westminster facing a UK wide disaster due to that misinformation, has had to act in concert.

Secondly an independent Scotland (erroneously) thinks, thanks to Labour’s economic, tax, and spend misinformation for decades, that it can be some socialist economic power house; overflowing with oil wealth, with non oil businesses providing a balanced economy that has to take whatever taxes and ‘social reforms’ thrown at them, without a debt or care in the world.

But without the SNP addressing the fundamental country/economic FACTS of the Scottish currency, how much higher an independent Scottish interest rates will be, there has had to be a huge dose of reality brought to bear on the SNP for the sake of Scottish voters – as businesses, whether starting up, established, looking to relocate to Scotland, small, medium of large – HAVE TO PLAN AHEAD for years to come.

And how many companies can NOT know their base/domestic currency, small country interest rate premium (especially as a financial institution), before worrying about an independent Scotland, with less oil than they are counting on, with their share of the UK debt/liabilities - putting up other costs of a company doing business.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11087039/BP-opposes-Scottish-independence-and-backs-oil-decline-warnings.html

Labour’s Miliband the other day, telling Scottish voters for years that their policies (despite their 13-year record) are ‘in touch’ and the Conservatives aren’t, was chastising the Conservatives for LOWERING the cost of business via Corporate Tax rather than forcing all businesses to pay higher salaries - despite the fact tens of thousands of small/medium sized businesses are STILL struggling and productivity (sustainability) is still too low.

Left of centre politicians, here or in Scotland, do not understand that there is no god given right to private sector jobs or a theological ‘what come first, the chicken (company), or the egg (job)’ dilemma – without jobs, there are no chances of a pay rise at any time, never mind when just emerging from the worst recession in 100-years.

“EY: ”Cutting UK tax draws in more multinationals”

“The accountancy firm highlights that the UK's competitive tax regime has led to a rise in overseas companies interested in domiciling in the UK”

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10472446/EY-Cutting-UK-tax-draws-in-more-multinationals.html

Left of centre politicians, here or in Scotland, will ALWAYS think that high social spending is more important than the private sector/companies that provides all the tax revenues – so think nothing of putting BUSSINESS COSTS UP, even during the worst recession in 100-years and a million or so jobs were lost, but need to be replaced for an economic recovery.

This was the pre 2010 General Election Labour solution to a ‘cost of living crisis’ and unemployment crisis, make employees and employers pay MORE, with a ‘jobs tax’. This was mainly reversed in Osbourn’s first budget.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/7539343/Labours-planned-National-Insurance-increase-will-cost-jobs-Alistair-Darling-admits.html
“In his evidence, Mr Darling defended his plans to increase national insurance, saying it was necessary to raise extra money to reduce Government borrowing, which will be £167 billion this year.”

Left of centre politicians, here or in Scotland, will always overspend, raise taxes to business taxes first, which reduces employment, and then when an economy least needs a fall in consumption economic growth and taxes to the wealthy bring in diddly squat, raise taxes on the rest of us.

Left of centre politicians, here and no doubt in an independent Scotland, refuse to accept that their fat expensive State, overtaxed business/job creators, vision of overly tight labour laws where businesses are afraid to hire in advance of a certain recovery and whole vision of socialist Utopia, is economically unsustainable e.g. France.

Without of course, a parliamentary dose of ‘unpopular’ Conservatism every now and then, to get the country’s books in order and get back business confidence, create Private Sector jobs and lower everyone’s taxes – for the whole process to start again.

For some reason, as John Major mentions in a link further above, a Scotland with three left of centre political parties still winding the Scots up with political misinformation e.g. a 20-odd year old Conservative council poll tax (yet thought nothing of Labour raising Council Tax up 110% over 13-years) - prefers to demonise the “effing” Conservative Party and have convinced them they are better off without the Conservative’s influence on UK politics.

Whether SNP in Scotland or Ukip misinformation here, both for party political power, that in Ukip's case ENSURES the next UK administration in 2015 will be run by pro EU, pro higher taxes Labour – is a democratic problem and I reiterate, with consequences for all of us.

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WetAugust · 11/09/2014 16:26

Isitmebut

they probably DO understand all the implications that you've laid out below but nevertheless have decided to stick their fingers in their ears and hum WE DON'T CARE.

Which is similar to the UKIP response to Tory predictions of hell and damnation if we don't vote Tory.

WE JUST DONT CARE ANYMORE so bring it on.

Cry havoc and unleash the dogs of war

Isitmebut · 11/09/2014 16:44

WetAugust .... based on Labour's economic, immigration, EU, housing, record, plus tax high and spend badly, not just 1997 to 2010, but right up to 1979 - you have confirmed my belief that all UKIP wants is Westminster power - CLACTON BEWARE.

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WetAugust · 11/09/2014 17:15

Don't know how on earth you managed to jump to that incorrect conclusion.

I probably won't even bother voting this time as the lies that are being put out by the Establishment to try go get the Scots to vote NO are making me feel very ill. It'll be exactly the same if an EU referendum is ever held

Spinflight · 11/09/2014 17:26

Haven't noticed any difference between the tories and labor myself...

WetAugust · 11/09/2014 22:19

I wonder what they promised the chairmen of the supermarkets and banks to get them to put the frightened on the Yes votes? I foresee a lot of knighthoods bring fudged out to those in charge of these organisations.

I'm starting to realise that we will never be able to leave Europe as the same scare tactics will be used in the referendum on Europe I.e. If we leave the EU our company will be forced to relocate to elsewhere in Europe / lay off staff / increase costs.

Pick you your own reason

Isitmebut · 12/09/2014 13:27

WetAugust/Spinflight ……. Dear me it’s like listening to ‘idiot’ in stereo, who refuses to acknowledge any facts and think a few Westminster seats for Ukip is more important than this country’s prosperity e.g. “we just don’t care anymore, cry havoc, bring on the dogs of war”. No twisting those, your words not mine.

WA; regarding supermarkets, how much of their goods are bought from outside Scotland, and if they do not know the Scottish currency rate/volatility, to buy and sell those goods – in the likelihood a Scottish currency would be weaken than the Pound, and either a socialist SNP/Labour Scottish government will as night follows day, put up wage costs and business taxes – how can supermarkets be WRONG for stating the obvious now????

The Scottish Referendum (re an EU one)shows that FACTS are key to an informed decision by ‘the people’, and we must not be afraid of the qualified facts from both sides. FYI as any company in the UK needs an EU member license to do business in the EU, some might leave as ‘stuff’ like transportation to/from mainland Europe would be easier, but others could have mainly ‘nameplate’ changes.

Key to that will be whether a UK’s pro business taxes, red tape, employee education for semi and skilled jobs, infrastructure and other factors ENCOURAGES businesses to STAY here or relocate here , and they can’t trust a Labour government to be any difference from the EU on that.

But voting Ukip does what, apart from ensuring a Labour government in 2015, and then wait 15-20 years before Ukip might get a parliamentary majority???? Really, what IS THE POINT of Ukip?

Spin: despite giving a few examples of the difference between Labour (and Conservatives) a few posts above, the CORE difference is that Labour likes big fat expensive governments, are generally anti business that pays our national bills and employs tax payers, screws private/state pensions, and keep raising business/personal taxes to pay for it all – and the Conservatives do the opposite.

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claig · 12/09/2014 23:25

Just watched Kirsty talking to Ken Loach about Scottish independence.
Loach brought up UKIP as part of the discussion about England where he said that Farage and Cameron would not lead to a tolerant society etc etc

Kirsty then said something like "But let's face it UKIP only have a small level of support"
Loach said "In Scotland?"
Kirsty said "No, in England"
and Loach said "Well, let's see"

Loach gets it, Kirsty doesn't. The luvvies, and Isitmebut, don't understand what is going on because they don't understand the people.

Andrew Marr says in the Guardian about Scottish independence

"What’s been going on in Scotland is, in a sense, a major populist revolt against Westminster, and if it can happen in Scotland it can happen elsewhere.” It needs, he believes, to be taken very seriously; it may need the great shock of losing Scotland for the point to definitively be made."

www.theguardian.com/media/2014/sep/12/andrew-marr-a-journalist-has-to-be-devious-head-of-state

UKIP is also a populist revolt, different to the Scottish one, but a people's revolt in England. The luvvies never saw it coming. After Clacton, they may just start to understand it.

Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian can see the future.

"the Ukip event is a harbinger of the future. For whatever the result in Scotland, the referendum there offers a foretaste of the ballot that could be coming to whatever remains of the United Kingdom in 2017: the Tories’ promised plebiscite asking whether we stay in or get out of the European Union."

...

"In 2017 there may be an attempt to forge a similarly united front. The Tory right will be noisy, as will the papers, but the assumption is that David Cameron would – after talks billed as a successful renegotiation of Britain’s EU membership – lead a campaign to stay in. Joining him would be Labour and the Lib Dems and the titans of finance and industry. That would once have seemed an unassailable combination. Until Scotland.

Now such an alliance seems as much liability as asset. Indeed “liability” is the word one senior Labour figure uses to describe Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg campaigning in unison this week in Scotland. “The establishment ganging up together has been a gift for Salmond,” he admits. As it would be for Farage in 2017.

Forty years ago, when deference was not yet dead and the governing classes had not yet discredited themselves through, among other things, an economic crash, an expenses scandal and a despised war, the mere fact of consensus was persuasive. If all these wise heads agree, ran the thinking, then this must be in the national interest. Now such unanimity, in the hands of a Salmond or Farage, is evidence of the very opposite: “It’s a stitch-up, if not a conspiracy, by the Westminster establishment, who have more in common with each other than they do with you.” To be an outsider in 1975, a Benn or a Powell, made you unreliable and eccentric. Now it makes you a fearless truth-teller, uniquely deserving of trust."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/12/scotland-votes-britain-europe-referendum

Everything has changed. The people have lost trust in the luvvies.

WetAugust is right that the scare tactics that will be used to try and keep us in the EU will be like nothing we have ever seen before. The Brussels brigade of marionettes may even engineer a financial calamity for us to frighten us. But I am not sure it will work anymore.

The people aren't so stupid. Clacton will show how smart they are.

claig · 12/09/2014 23:34

The luvvies told the people not to vote UKIP. All their newspapers and all their media and all their political journalists, Etonians and Oxbridge spinners in the Sun, the Mail and in every paper told them about the fruitcakes in UKIP, but the people ignored them all and still voted UKIP in the European elections.

The luvvies are at a loss, they don't know how to con the people anymore.

They still don't get it, they can't see that change is coming, they can't read the writing on the wall.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/09/2014 23:52

I've never found walls to be a particularly good source of rational information TBH.

claig · 13/09/2014 00:00

'I've never found walls to be a particularly good source of rational information TBH.'

But writing on the wall is figurative not literal, it is like reading the tea leaves, seeing the coming storm before it happens, understanding what change is coming and understanding public mood, sentiment and will.

It is about politics, it is about democracy, it is about the people not the puppets, it is about all our futures, not our pasts.

'the governing classes had not yet discredited themselves through, among other things, an economic crash, an expenses scandal and a despised war, the mere fact of consensus was persuasive. If all these wise heads agree'

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/12/scotland-votes-britain-europe-referendum

Who can see where the "wise heads" will lead us like puppets on a string as they are told to try and take the World Cup away from Russia and as they are told to take us into ever greater conflict with Russia as the EU flexes its muscles in its empire building expansion?

How much more will they "discredit" themselves and will the people end up saying we want independence, not puppets, who bail out bankers and dance to the tune of war?

Spinflight · 13/09/2014 03:33

Aye Claig,

The problem our scumbag politicians have is that they think they are interesting. They honestly think that people like you and I give a toss about their pathetic charades at PMQs or their petty squabbles over policy ( which history clearly dictates they never stick to).

Its a bit like three used car salesmen slagging each other off. As I don't trust any of them when they unite in disparaging a new dealership I'm likely to start thinking I should have a look see and find out what they are all so afraid of.

Unfortunately we might lose Scotland because our rump parliament is the most despised and untrustworthy institution in the country ( barring tabloid journalists who are in it together with the politicians).

You can't blame the Scottish, in a straight choice between their own elected government or the condescension of chinless wonders, pitiless millionaires, hypocrites, power hungry zealots and liars that currently govern them it really is only the weight of history that figures on the positive side of the scales.

Their propaganda is transparent, their threats hollow and their values stink. The only argument the no campaign has put forward is money based. Clearly that is the only thing which motivates them and they assume the same of us. Their country means nothing to them, just their bank balance.

The reek from Westminster means it is a club no-one wants to join. Even with the tide in UKIP's favour and realistic chances of being elected the vast majority of members either have no intention of standing or do so because nobody else is willing.

Quite the opposite in the liblabcon where PPEs and sycophants plan their careers decades hence by spending years on pointless university courses, becoming researchers, networking with similar scum and fighting a losing seat before being parachuted into a safe one.

I know several such creatures personally and I wouldn't buy a used car off any of them.

Sorry Isitme..

"expensive governments, are generally anti business that pays our national bills and employs tax payers, screws private/state pensions, and keep raising business/personal taxes to pay for it all – and the Conservatives do the opposite."

Its not about the money, money, money.....

Isitmebut · 13/09/2014 09:42

Claig ...... socialism whether in Westminster or Holyrood, is apparently never about money, until it is scarce or it runs out e.g. Labour's 2010 £157 billion annual budget deficit, but try delivering public services and social justice you promise WITHOUT any money.

Politicians after personal power, be they in the SNP or Ukip, disingenuously pretend a countries ability to pay it's bills does not matter, or they have an alternative (distraction) to those political party's that can provide a sustainable economy.

I can understand the SNP (or Labour), that is what socialist administrations do, but UKip, full of failed Conservatives who at least understand that no Labour government has ever left a UK economy better than they found it since god knows when - KNOWING taking votes that ENSURES the next government in 2015, is politically despicable.

For Ukip, this is not about MONEY Claig, they don't give a shit when everyones taxes go up to pay for economic incompetence that also reduces services, it is about POWER in Westminster - and as long as Ukip get a few Westminster seats the EARN, not take over, THEY will see it as a national victory.

Claig, there is nothing wrong with political 'alternatives' but Ukip just TALK about them, they (as you prove on here) have NOTHING.

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