I'm astonished that so many people are in favour of...

[emkana]

... smacking

HappyDaddy, emotional support for new parents would seem more appropriate to me.

Why's that Babounette?

Why Happydaddy? Would that be to teach you not to smack or something or would it teach you how to smack?
Sorry to react so violently to that suggestion but I am bloody fed up with: Parenting books, classes. I'm fed up with being 'told' how much I should drink, that I shouldn't smoke, what food I should eat, how I can live longer, look ten years younger, decorate my house. What I can say, not say, how to carry my children in a car The list is endless. And what I want to shout out is "SHUT THE F*CK UP" .
That outburst is NOT directed at anyone here.
I chose to come on here and have a discussion, but I've had it up to here with bloody big brother government directives, whilst I have to stand by and watch the feckless spongers of society get everything handed to them on a plate and get punnished for nothing

Joelallie, Its my personal problem... explanation being that my dad smacked us over his knee. It wasn't pleasant, it was old fashioned but I didn't feel messed up by it. My mum would lose control and behave like a lunatic, then come apologising when I would be curled up in my bed hating her and crying. And I would have to say its okay mum don't feel bad I'm okay even though I wasn't. Later on I was hit by husband no.1 then he would cry and I would comfort him!!!!
I really have only smacked my kids once or twice while trying to work out what to do with them. I think I was getting it wrong and I manage ok without smacking them. But I don't think smacking is as bad as emotional abuse.If I accidently scratch them or stand on their toe or forget something for them, I apologise immediately. And they apologise to me and each other without being told to, even the 22month old. Its hard to post anything without annoying people!

kittywits, thanks for the anger, it was lovely.

I meant as a suggestion, a lot of the thinking on here seems to be regarding the lack of control or parenting skills with both smackers or non smackers. was just a question.

Now you piss off .

Well done to you Babournette .
You have enormous courage and that in itself makes you a good mum. Good mums are the ones that look to improve and know that pretty well everything they do is flawed to a degree.

And I know that there are some times when I think "I have no idea what I'm doing, I don't know how to deal with this situation", not just with naughtiness.

Because I truly beleive that a lot of the 'mistakes' that parents are doing is because they are overwhelmed by the new situation.
Also because there are a lot of ways to parent a child, all acceptable,
And finally because you would have the same understanding of a parenting course if you never have been in contat with children comapre to aferwards when you are actually faced with the problems.
I remember reading a very good book when I was pregnant about parenting. It didn't really made any sense to me to the time. If read it now, I can immediatly say 'Yes that is worth trying. it should work'

I agree Babounette - parenting is so easy when you don't have any kids....

Hurrah for the League Against Assumptions, thanks Kittywits, Greeny and all.

So boo (as the 2 yr olds say...) to the assumption that a child who's encouraged to question stuff can't follow rules and wouldn't know how to respect their teachers. Like most kids, ds understands that his parents and nursery have rules and mostly saves the questioning for big issues like, but what is a willie for??

I shall stay a non-smacker but mn has certainly broadened my mind about parents who do smack.

Babounette, I have read your earlier posts and I appreciate where you are coming from. You are talking about your own specific experience, whereas I suppose I am trying to look at the overall picture.

Sorry, you should read 'wouldn't have the same understanding'

Thank you for your answer Babournette, very well thought out. You make a lot of sense.

Our idea of what the general picture is is alays influenced by our own experiences. Some of them can just be very very different.

I'm another who hates smacking but dh had fewer qualms about it when dd was a toddler. I wasn't smacked much but got the occasional one on the thigh. The most terrifying experience re parental punishment I ever got was when my mum lost it (I had been dreadful), sent me to my room and came up later to smack my bum. I did deserve it, but actually she hadn't really the heart to carry it out, and so though I 'got away with it' I never did that particular thing again.

I will however let you all in on a horrible 'secret' of which I am heartily ashamed:

dh, now 7, in the last 6m developed a habit of rushing up behind either me or dh and just careering into whichever one of us, breaking her rush with her hands wamming into the small of our backs. Now we both have rather chronic physical problems and believe me this was completely unacceptable. After a couple of months of this, where we started with the 'don't do that' and wound up with 'DON'T DO THAT', she'd seen the results (from causing pain to rendering us unable to stand up) none of this worked. Naughty step, removal of toys/privileges etc - all to no avail. A month ago she did it to me and Yes, I turned round and smacked her on the bum (pathetic smack as my arm got caught up in things I was carrying, so I barely touched her) but she has never done it since.

Personally, despite the above, I don't like smacking, I think 7 is far too old to be smacked, I am horribly ashamed of myself, but every so often I remember that incident and I realise I haven't a clue about anything really!

Babounette, do you think if smacking was illegal it would have deterred you from smacking your child when you had PND or not make any difference?

Unfortunatly, I am not sure about it because at the high of PND, I just didn't think logically at all. I knew at the bottom of my heart that smacking a baby wasn't right but it didn't stop me doing it .
On the other side, I also found that once you have started smacking your child, it can be very easy for things to escalate nearly wo you realizing it.
Also it is setting a pattern and you are much more likely to then hit - not smack - your child when youreally loose your temper. I would imagine that's why some children are getting hit by their parents and also why when something like this has happen once, it's more likely to happen again.
There are a lot of different situations, people who are mentally ill (I would include PND in it), people who occasionally smack but are stable people (I don't think they will be the ones to abuse their children), people who don't know any other ways, etc... I am not sure that a law on the subject wouldn't be detrimental to some of these groups. I would prefer an approch much more 'on the ground' to help people by giving them the help suitable for them to look after their children.

Now in Demark, they have had a law about it about 20 years ago. The number of children who are abused/hit has dropped dramatically, probably for the reasons I gave. However, I would imagine that
1- it wasn't an instant result
2- they must have had a lot work done too to support families

For me that's a very different

Now in Demark, they have had a law about it about 20 years ago. The number of children who are abused/hit has dropped dramatically, probably for the reasons I gave. However, I would imagine that
1- it wasn't an instant result
2- they must have had a lot work done too to support families, help them finding other ways to parent, managing anger. All that easily accessible without the risk of being told 'You are a bad parents. You smack. We will take your chikdren into care'

Sorry computer issue...

Casoulette, thanks for telling us that ( I'd use the word sharing, but I really hate that sort of stuff ).
Your example does show that there ARE times, with certain children in certain siuations where a smack is the most effective solution. It does in no way make you a bad parent and nor should you feel ashamed.

Thank you Babounette.
The smacking that I see around me is not considered. I have detailed it before but it is mostly smacking out of frustration (wriggley, grizzley, whiney child in supermarket) and laziness (child behaving badly in a public place while being mostly ignored by parent, smacked for bad behaviour while parent returns to chat/coffee/paper reading). These smacks never seem to be issued in a considered way with warnings etc but are just slaps as a quick way to deal with an unwanted situation.
I am wondering this outloud, as I don't know the answer. If smacking was made illegal would these type of smacks be replaced by better parenting or something worse?

Bugsy, I too think that that sort of smacking is pointless and damaging for 2 reasons.

1. The child probably hasn't got a clue what they did to warrant such behaviour from the parent.
2. It is likely that it happens pretty frequenty so becomes a meaningless and ineffective thing to do and is likely to make the child agressive I disagree with both those uses of smacking

If the bottom issue is frustation or laziness, I would expect that a quick fix type of reaction to replace it. Would it be better? I am really not sure about it.

But, I suspect (don't know for sure) that the majority of smacking is like that Kittywits.
As I have said before, I can just about understand how a parent would smack as an absolute last resort for a serious transgression (although I still don't think it is right or necessary) but somehow, I don't think that most smacks are for things like that. I think most smacks are like those I see around me in my day to day interaction with parents & their children, that are out of frustration & laziness.