I'm astonished that so many people are in favour of...

[emkana]

... smacking

joelallie, it is so sad when you don't manage to raise up to your own standards and feel that in some ways, you have let your own children down
I felt vey sad when I had ds2 and realized how I was with him compare to ds1 and how I should have been with ds1. What helped me is the sheer dtermination to change it and to know that I am doing something about it.
I have talked about positive parenting. It helped me a lot, not fo all the reasons you might first think of (self confidence in the child the child wanting to please etc...) but because I had to see the good sides in him and his attitude. Also, doing what I am asking ds1 to do such as 'No shouting' and explain the reson why I am crossed with him - as ds1 said- (eg I am crossed because you drew on the furniture not on the paper. Now the sofa is damaged, I can't repair it so I am sad about it because I really liked it) Do you think it would help you or your DH?

kittywits, I arrived to the same conclusion than you : Children are children. They are supposed to do as they are told.
We are in very different situation but I think that for very different reasons we both need to have a house where things are running smoothly and it doesn't always take 1hour for one child to get dressed after lots of discussion and giving choices etc... Everyone is feeling drained after it and it doesn't do any good to anyone IMO.
It is probably very conservative but I actually don'thave a problem with it TBH.

"More often than not though I haven't got the time or energy to analyse why any of my children are playing up. if they know that something is wrong and is has been explained and they continue to do it then they will get a smack. this is very rare though, usually that bad behaviour stops because I say it must. "

I do undertand that it is hard to find the time - I think we all struggle there at times, but that is my problem with smacking. That it is used as a quick tool due to lack of time being found. The same goes for shouting etc.

I am not meaning to specifically 'get at' you kitty but you are posting the most on hear for pro-smacking (should call this thread kittywits parenting tips )

Thinng is statements like 'Children are children and adults are in charge.
I expect to be obeyed without question. 'makes me think of the matilda film 'I Big your small, I'm rights your wrong' type attitude which doesnt really teach alot.

babounette - we know what we have to do . We did it for years with the eldest 2 - the explanations, the calm voice, ignoring the bad and praising the good....beleive me we really were very different. I can't remember how I was sometimes - when DD reminds me of something I 'used to do' with/for them I really struggle to remember it and am often amazed that it ever happened. The children aren't particularly 'naughty' for want of a better word, simply very boisterous and lively ...and there's three of them! And DH and I are both out at work so time is extremely tight. The only strategy is for both of us to take a lot of deep breaths and try to remain calm at all times. It's simply hard but I can never let my guard down not matter how tired or stressed. And sadly DH doesn't see that his strategy is causing a problem - he'd NEVER smack but doesn't have a problem with shouting. Can't see that one is as bad as the other and appears to upset the kids more.

I think this is a fundamental difference between parenting philosophies. I don't generally expect - or want - to be obeyed "without question". Of course there are some things - like running into the road - which are not negotiable, but because I don't demand unconditional obedience all the time, for the sake of it, my 4yo has listened and understood why I don't want him to run into the road and he doesn't want to either, because he doesn't want to be hit by a car. We've made crossing the road into a ritual which he takes pride in and enjoys. My 2yo is too young to understand that logic (he is learning!), so he is either held in arms/by the hand, in a baby carrier or strapped into a buggy. I don't really think obedience "without question" is a healthy thing for a child to learn. I think it is outdated and disempowering for a person to grow up obeying authority without question, out of fear of reprisals.

I would say though that I think screaming at a small child in temper is just as bad as smacking. It's a form of violence IMO (I have had this argument on MN before). I HAVE occasionally lost my temper and raised my voice to my children, and felt terrible - and made plenty of other mistakes too. I don't feel holier-than-thou about this, I just have strong views about it. This is a very thought-provoking debate.

ok kitty I don't have 5 children. But the fundimentals of what you are saying are what I find difficult to understand.
without quoting i mean-the bits about adults being in charge and children must obay me.

A child needs to trust in you completely.

You beleive that children must obay their parents. Does that also go for the not so good parents?

being obayed without question? Surely even as a parent of 5 children you are still learning from them as they grow and as your family grows?
I have learnt more from my children about how to be a parent than anywhere else.

I beleive that parents are there to guide and protect not to be obayed.

My children respect me. they know that they will be punnished if they miss-behave. They respond beautfully to explaination.
If you beleive that washing the sheets to help mummy after an incident like the pen one, then that makes me really sad because in my opinion the child would only need to do it if she needed to fight for your attention.

Disiplin shouldn't start as an end result of a behaviour imo it should be part of the larger picture of parenting.

I reason with my ds1 every day, I will change my intention if I feel that he has a valid point, and in return he respects and trusts me in mine.

For example..
most days when he comes home from school he asks to watch tv (we generally only watch tv on fridays after school)
Somedays we talk about what he has been doing and if I feel that he has had a tiring day or if he has done something worth rewarding then I decide to let him watch it. Or he might suggest that we have a walk first to give him some exercise and earn him some tv time.
He respects me because I am reasonable, and he understands that for every thing I decide there is always a reason that he can understand.
The same thing goes for the younger ones but in a way that they can understand.
The respect that I have from him has been earnt by me over his entire life and is very precious.

The thing that I loose my temper with is the bloody housework! I hate it.
But I would much rather get cross at a mucky floor than even contemplate the thought of my children knowing that I could use my physical advantage over them

bump greeny -you put it simpler than me tho

I hear what you're saying Awen, it's ok Thankfuly I don't look like Miss Trunchbull
I stick around on these threads even when I am in a minority because I like to have a disscusion. Threads aren't so interesting if we all agree and I can learn alot about myself and others through these threads and anything that makes you think has to be a good thing.

Thankyou poppet, don't get me wrong, I do discuss things with my children all the time and I learn all the time. each of my childfen needs a different parenting technique and each responds to family life ina different way.
of course my 4 year old needs more attention from me, that goes without saying. I give as much as I can, but I can only stretch so far. I do the best I can.
I agree with most of what you are saying, however, I stick to my point that children should obey their parents. they can question me when they are 18 not 8. If they are very naughty, which children can often be (without it being the parent's fault for not being available enough) then they get an appropriate telling off. What we disagree on is what is appropriate.

I agree to some extent but the fact that they should simply obay is not good enough for me. At 8 a child is highly intelligent and imo opinion is certainly old enough to question an authority for example in a situation where the mum is so busy with housework/dinner/other kids the 8 yr old might could potentially have a valid argument against/for a decision. If that 8 year old is not able to challenge the parent (in a respectful and reasonable manner -learnt from mummy herself) because she has been brought up to know that she must obay mummy, then I fail to see how that child will learn and develope into a reasonable adult.

sorry didn't come out like I meant it...

I fail to see how the child will learn effective reasoning skills and the real meaning of respect.

And surley that 8 yr old will rebel at some point?

IMO if a child are not allowed ever to question authority at 8, then he will not be able to do so efectively and with confidence at 18. There is a huge spectrum between "obedience without question" and "children ruling the roost with no respect or manners at all".

I encourage my 3 yo to question me, and everyone else.

What I find interesting is that, when it really matters, he will always do as he is told.

If I tell him he has to do something, and that there is to be no debate (holding hands when crossing the road, being quiet while I talk to the GP), he will always do it.

It is rare that I put these demands on him. Yes he always comes up trumps.

I also encourage me, and everyone else, to question my 3 yo, IYSWIM!

same with my little monkeys filly. It really does work.

Can anyone who does smack say the same?

GLt and TYP sorry, but I think that is not true. At 8 you are still a child, there is plenty of time to learn, to question. I never queastioned my mother's authority, no matter how batty she was, I didn't think she was batty at the time btw. I needed to know that she was totally in charge and that way I felt secure. At 8 I did not want the responsibilty of having to make decisions, to take control of things. I wanted to be a child!! Children are not adults, they are different. We should respect them of course, but they are children and we are in charge and so it should be.
Doing that has in no way stopped me from questioning other adults, as you can probably tell

But it does, doesn't it, poppet?

Treat them with respect and, damn it, they respect you too! Its great, IME!

yes TYP I can say that it works, everytime.

I think kids need to know how to, and be given the confidence and authority to question, and as early as possible, to

a. develop a strong sense of self

and

b. protect themselves from unpleasent adults.

As the DDs progressed from toddlers to pre-schoolers/at school, we found ourselves trucking down the 'I'm the adult, you're the child, you do what I say' route, just because it seemed 'the right thing' to do and fitted with our pragmatic, logical and perhaps rather unsentimental approach to life. However, I became increasingly uncomfortable that that authoriarian style of parenting neither suited us or helped the DDs to become the kind of people I wanted them to be and over the past few months we've begun to adopt a different perspective. Reading 'How to talk so kids will listen ....' has helped; it's got some useful strategies. But for a really thought-provoking and challenging read on punishments (and rewards), I'm halfway through Alfie Kohn's 'Unconditional Parenting'. I started out thinking Kohn was as mad as a box of frogs, but some of what he says has won me over. Partially.

BTW - GreenLumpyTonsils are you Greensleeves?

Filly, I don't understand how teaching a child to question everybody is teaching them respect. If a three year old questioned me I would think them rather precocious.
We have an enormous problem today with lack of respect for authority, whether it be for teachers, pole, medical profession etc. It really doesn't help by teaching a three year old to question adults. I do find that, well amazing TBH

If you smack once a child and they respect you then yes it has worked. But if you have to constantly smack to earn respect (be obayed) then it hasn't worked has it?

kitty are you able to have a go at the other option? perhaps have a read of what izzymum has suggested?

You have said that you do your best but it is hard. It really must be I'm sure.

If you had the time to try it really would be fascinating to see how you get on.

It is never too late to change parenting tactics.
we are constantly adapting as our family grows in size and number.

Ok kitty I'll try to explain.

I see respect as not something you do as a learnt response, or because you have no choice, but as something that you actively choose to do because you have thought it through and think it is a good idea.

Do your kids seriously not question you? Seriously? My son's favourite word is "why", his second favourite is probably "how".

I have never once in my life, never respected someone because they told me to, or because I had not choice. Never.

I respect people because they earn my respect. Because I can see they know what they are talking about. And because they are secure enough in their knowlege, and have enough respect for me to let me question them.

I lose patience pretty quickly with anyone too up their own ar$e to be challenge, tbh.

He doesn't get his own way even most of the time. His wants have to be negotiated with every one else's, particularly his sister's but also mine.

am watching the labour party conferance right now.

here's the problem. people can't think for themselves enough not to believe this tripe.

I would like to share with you my own experience.

• As a young child I must have been smacked. Reading the thread made some very vague memories of been smacked coming back. I couldn't tell you why I was just that it probably hapened.
• I do have a great relation with my parents.
• I do remember having this very strong feeling of self discipline in me from a very young age. I can actually still remember not doing things that were very attractive to me because I knew my mum would strongly disapproved of them when I was about 7~8 yo. I remember about it because I found it very very hard. Even as a teenager, I wouldn't have done something my mum would have strongly disapproved of, like going out in a night club or going for a ride on a motobike.
• I did talk a lot with my parents about everything. My mum would take my point of view into account etc... BUT she would also expect immediate obedience when necessary. That includes getting dressed when told so, not drawing on furniture etc... I am actually appauled to hear stories like that because THIS is totally foreign to me and was unimaginable to me until I had children and started to heard storied like this.

For my own children, well I do expect the same from them than my mum expected from me TBH. I do expect some immediate obediance and would use smacking if need be and I do expect that until they have developed enough self discipline and be rational enough that you can use explaination etc... Smacking is just iscipline tool that is available to parents. It doesn't exclude any other tools and doesn't stop you developing a great relation with your children. Kitty is not the only one to support the idea of smacking. To go back to the OP, about 80% of people are OK with it and 60% of people with children. So she must be the voice of a lot of parents somehow...