I'm astonished that so many people are in favour of...

[emkana]

... smacking

Crossed post.
I don't agree that children should be allowed to discuss everything. Whether they wwant to wear the green or the blue tee-shirt yes. Wheter tey will wear a jumper ora tee-shirt when it is snowing outside no - well not from a 3yo who is not able to understand the logic behind it.
Don't forget too that some of us ahve more strong willed children than others. I know that there are a lot of subjects where I can not afford that give any leeway to ds1 because otherwise he would become unmanageable.
The same goes with getting dressed. If I am late at work because it took 1/2 hour for ds1 to get dressed, then I am in trouble. So, I think it is up to me to give him an environment where he will see the consequence of his behaviour. When he will go to school he will be able to see the consequence of being late at school and being told of by the teacher all by himself. ATM, he needs to learn through another type of consequence. Why not a quick smack on the bottom?

Re respect : I respect my mum because she taught me self discipline. I learnt it because there was some very clear boundaries and consequences for misbehaving. I was a strong willed child and if she hadn't enforced strong boundaried, I wouldn't have learnt.
It didn't stop me questionning, she actually encouraged it. But when she told me to do something, it had to be done.

how on earth would a 'quick smack on the bottom' teach your child that she needs a jumper on when it is cold?
surely that will only stunt your child's development?
You are the adult here, if you are going to be late for work then get up earlier to leave time to explain this kind of thing to your child -let her go and feel how cold it is.

Try and see things through the eyes of a three yr old -how on earth would she be able to comprehend that mummy smack me because it is cold outside and i won't put my jumper on?

So you get to work and, I don't know, someone is using the computer that you need to use, do you smack them because it will make you late for your job or do you wait your turn and go and time-manage a bit better?

also have you worked out why she is not wanting you to put her jumper on? do you think that maybe she is trying to wind you up to get some attention?

It is very hard getting out of the door in the morning to go to work, but also hard for the child.
Are you happy for your childminder/nursery to continue the same methods of discipline as you -(a quick smack on the bottom)
there is a very good reason why it is against the law for childcarers.

Sorry I don't see the problem in the same way. If after explaining that it's cold outside and my child is still screaming because he doesn't want to then yes I am the adult in charge and he will wear a jumper even it means that he will get a smack for not being disobedient (not for not wnating to wear it in the ifrst place).
re getting up earlier : is it fair on the child to get him up between 5.30 and 6.00 in the morning to have a spare 45 min to get dressed because he has to be dropped at nursery by 7.30am??? Sorry it is a balancing act and sometimes you need to get immediate obedience for the sake of the child itself. I don't see how cutting his sleep by 1/2 hour or 45min will help.

Kittywits - am in awe of you as mother of 5 and I do get that long explanations aren't terribly practical. In answer to your question last night, I'd still say that once you've decided that smacking is unacceptable, to borrow supernanny's favourite word, it's surprisingly easy to only draw on your other techniques. Mind you, I've only got the one child...

As I've said, I also had a maninpulative mother who thought she was doing her best while hitting and raging at me so I'm interested that you still think you were right not to question your mother. I think (hope?) you can give children security and strong boundaries while also encouraging them to question everything, including their parents.
I watched Jane Eyre on tv the other night, the ultimate questioning child, and must say I'd love ds to be like her (though without the cruelty, starvation and bigamy.)

Haven?t read all posts but have read a fair few.

Firstly, I am neither pro or anti smacking, I feel that people should be able to make their own decisions on the matter, and I don?t think that either side is right or wrong, or that anyone has the right to judge the way someone else parents their child, as long as that method of parenting isn?t abuce, and no, I don?t think that smacking, that is smacking not beating, constitutes child abuce.

I think it is very easy to view what someone else does as wrong if that?s not the way you choose to do things, but at the end of the day every child is different, and what works for one doesn?t necessarily work for another, and one form of discipline won?t always work foor all situations, i.e. if I put ds into time out for every naughty thing he did then sooner or later it wouldn?t work any more, similarly if I smacked him for everything that wouldn?t always work either, so we have to discipline according to the situation sometimes.

I was smacked as a child, not often but it did happen, and I was also shouted at and put into time out which I remember very well. I don?t remember being smacked but I do remember being shut in a room and sitting there crying my heart out because I felt that no-one loved me, and interestingly I was having a conversation about time out with my mil recently, and she said that when dh was little, time out was considered to be a bad thing because it gave children a sense of rejection, and having experienced that I can absolutely see where that argument comes from.

I can?t help thinking that since we have started to annalise everything about the way we bring up our children, since all the parenting manuals have been produced saying how things should be done, since we?ve starting harping on about childrens? rights and how children are equal to adults, there is little to no respect from children and our society as a whole is going downhill. There has to be a link, surely? Not necessarily related to the fact we consider smacking to be wrong, but more because discipline is almost seen to be wrong, we?re told not to discipline our children, but to reason with them, and imo that just doesn?t work.

Oups, forgot to say. When I talk about 45 min to get dressed, it is what it takes him to put some clothes on if I try to ignore him, go out of the room saying that I will come back when he will be ready to put some clothes on. That's after having given him some choices in which pants he wants to wear, which trousers and explaining him that it is sold outside so he has to wear a jumper.
Also, it might sounds strange to you but I think it is more better to get over the problem quickly, still be fair and then have some time to spend with him in a relaxed way (real quality time) than spending the same amount of time nagging him, both of us getting upset and finally dropping him at nursery both of us still upset about the whole event.

'harping on about children's rights'
wannabe do you not think that when people did start harping on about them, and started to recognise child abuse that a whole lot of horrific truth was uncovered
do you not think that the fact people did start 'harping on' about childrens rights has actually gone some way to save a lot of kids from abuse?

time out isn't the only other option either.

wannaBe1974, I like your post and especially the comment about time out...Makes you think isn't it?
To be able to learn respect, children first need to respect boundaries and orders (yes as adullts we still do receive a lot of them) and learn to obey without discussing everything.
eg : there is a speed limit on the road at 60mph. But I am in a hurry and I have taken some driving lessons to become a professional driver. Therefore, I am less dangerous than most other drivers on the road even if I am going at 80mph.
Does it give me the right to discuss the speed limit and choose at which speed to go ? No.
For that reason it is just as important for our DC to learn to follow rules and orders without questioning them.

BTW thankyoupoppet, would you be happy to wake you child up at 5.30am??

Tryagain. My dd won't put her coat/jumper on - v. strongwilled!

Rather than argue with or hit her, I tuck the coat under my arm, she steps outside the house, she asks for her coat - it's that simple, no stress.

As someone said, her direct experience tells her that she needs a coat without having to explain.

tryagain-
Maybe it is acceptable that a 3 yr old is going to be pretty fed up with being taken out of the house so early? I would be a right old grump bag personally and I would probably kick up a stink about anything too. I understand that you may feel it is not your choice/you are forced to work these hours but even so do you not think your 3 yr old deserves a little ley way here and be a bit extra patient in that situation. rather than instantly resorting to a 'smack on the bottom'

I'm sorry but as adults we can all understand the reason why a speed limit is in force.
not just simply because someone decided to make a rule up without explaination.

people adhere to rules if they understand and respect them. people ignore rules they dont respect or understand.
Children also adhere to rules, quite like at school/nursery, they manage it without getting a smack there don't they?

I did first that I had explain it was cold outside, given him some choices on what to wear etc.. but to no avail.
I also did try the let's go out without a coat/jumper. Didn't work either because he went directly in the car & didn't really realized it was cold. For the story at that age my niece and nephew have been playing outside in tee-shirt in the middle of winter wo realizing they were cold!! Their mum had to drag them inside because their lips were blue but they still didn't want to go back inside..
In a year or two when he will be able to realize the relationship, then yes agree right method but not at that age....

Saying that I am epecting obedience doesn't mean I don't explain why.
To be able to respect a rule you first need to learn to follow it.
Re nursery, I can promise you they don't have the same sort of problems than us parents. Our DC keep the worst of them for us the parents and it is up to us to show the way.
BTW why is the word 'obey' becoming a swear word?

mumby, thankyou for you condsidered post. I didn't question my mother because I thought everything was normal! And I felt safe, despite her madness!

And at nursery they can usually spot hte children whose parents are happy to discuss evry order t home because they have much more problems with them.

tryagain perhaps 'obay' is a difficult concept for some people in this given context.

obay or get smacked.

not nice or fair imo.

children don't 'just miss-behave' there is always a reason for a behaviour, unless the child has psychological probs.
there is no way a 3 yr old is able to save up their bad behavior for their parents.

TP of course it?s a good thing that children do have more rights, and that child abuce is much more in the open now than it was say, 20 years ago. But that should not mean that adults lose their rights so that children can rule the world, which is what is starting to happen in our society imo. My mil was until recently chair of a board of governors at a well-known catholic school in Berkshire, recently a teacher had an incident where a pupil was being aggressive to another pupil, these children were 7 years old. When the teacher tried to intervene, one of the children said to her ?you can?t touch me, I know my rights, and if you touch me I?ll say you abused me?. Now obviously this child will have heard that from a parent, as a 7 year old does not have the knowledge to really understand what ?abuce? is, but it?s frightening that children say these things and that if they cried abuce then that teacher?s career would be on the line. In fact there has been more than one incident recently where teachers have been falsely accused of abuce by children. Of course children should have rights, I just think that it?s gone too far the other way, the same as politically correctness has gone too far.

that is all very terrible wannabe but are you claiming that none of these children, the ones that are so out of control noadays, are the children who don't get smacked by their parents because their parents are obsessed with political correctness?

I would suggest that these children learnt aggression from somewhere -most likely from their parents.

no of course not, but by the same token not all children who don't get smacked are little angels who do no wrong.

It always amazes me that people say that if smacking worked then you would only have to do it once, surely that should apply to all forms of discipline, and yet that is not the case.

I wonder whether any of the smackers have ever met a child who was courteous, well-behaved, secure, confident and nice-mannered, but had never been smacked? It doesn't sound like it. It sounds as though the non-smacked children the smackers on this thread have met have tended to be precocious, insecure or unmanageable.

And I personally can honestly say that I have never met a child who matches the above description who was smacked. All the children I know who have been smacked are either aggressive and rude, or unnaturally subdued and timid.

Is part of the problem that we tend to bond with those who share our lifestyles/values/philosophies, especially once we become parents, so we maintain a one-sided view of the "other"? I know that I cut short a budding friendship once, although I liked the woman at face value, because I found out that she disciplined them with an wooden spoon, and I couldn't square that with being friends with her, not to mention not wanting my children to see it happening. This wasn't an abusive, scary mother btw - she was, interestingly, very liberal and loving with them all the times that I saw her. I couldn't work it out.

Just a thought. This is a very polarising debate, there aren't many "moderates".

PS - I am really NOT trying to pick a fight here, I am genuinely interested in getting to the heart of this divide.