I'm astonished that so many people are in favour of...

[emkana]

... smacking

Soapbox, please do us favour and do that.

Nothing to cut and paste then soapbox?

Hmmm 'us' a favour!

No just you - there isn't anyone else on MN that I find tiresome.

I smack as a last resort which does not happen often.

I don't smack my children, although I have in the past, but I regretted it. I don't support smacking as it didn't work for our family.

I wholeheartedly agree with Kittywit's statement:

"I also have a problem with dictatorial governments constantly curtailing our freedoms and always 'knowing better'".

It seems like the average parent is treated by the authorities like we have no common sense, and no idea of what is best for our own children.

Of course we all have a responsibility to protect ALL the children in our society, and laws are needed to punish those who abuse or hurt children.

But I am angered by the constant erosion of the freedoms of those of us who are doing our best to be good parents.

My main issue with the government's legislation is regarding education, but it is the same principle.

wondering what any pro-smackers on-line this evening think of my concerns posted at 10.39 am

genuinly interested in your comments.

Thankyoupoppet Hi

Just read your post of 10.39am. I totally agree with you and have seen similar scenarios and have not just been shocked, but have felt very concerned for the safety of those children. I clearly recall seeing a young Mum and two young men walking near where I live, with a child about 18 months old in a buggy. The child spoke and he mother screamed "shut your F*cking face up, or I will smash you in the face!" . The child had done nothing wrong and I've thought about that poor child ever since and wondered what happened to them and what their daily life is like.

However, that is not the same scenario as when if after repeated warnings, I occasionally smack my six year old DS when he is being extremely naughty. ( a light sting on the back of the leg) You may not agree with smacking and I do respect your view, but you cannot confuse what is clearly verbal/physical abuse by someone with no parenting skills (and quite frankly few other skills from what I saw) with a single sharp sting, used in very limited crirumstances by a loving parent, when the child has been told several times to stop and is fully aware they are being very naughty.

I don't relish smacking; it is an extreme measure and is only used as such and in controlled circumstances (as opposed to out of control). I do understand how you find it abhorrant. I find some methods people use abhorrant; for example a friend who left her three year old to cry alone in her room for two hours, to "teach" her she has to go to bed and not come out of her room when put to bed. This is an extremely well educated and articulate mother. Or another person who locked her 2 year old son in the car alone for 90 minutes because he started crying during his 5 year old sisters birthday party I personally couldn't do that and I would never smack DS for climbing out of bed, for pulling things of supermarket shelves; asking inquisitive questions or being generaly annoying or cheeky.

And I'm certainly not implying other people on this thread who use other methods ever verbally or mentally abuse their children; I just hold the view that some hings are far worse than a small smack; repeatedly telling a child they are an idiot (for example, I heard a friend do that to her son) could be more damaging in the long run, particularly if he insult is repeated. Ditto mocking a child when they ask a serious inquisitive question.

I welcome the chance to debate parenting methods and would seriously consider all suggesions, opinions etc. I just don't think over-emotionalising is useful or confusing a small smack with child abuse.

I just want to make an additional point; to saopbox actually. Its fine to disagree and that what makes MN so vibrant; the wide range of views and people who use it; but when you start personalising, soapbox, all your arguements instantly lose any legitimacy.

fatfox agree with a lot of your post. I don't find smacking abhorrant, nor am I confusing smacking with abuse.
I am saying that a lot of people do confuse smacking with abuse.
Sometimes there needs to be a blanket law to protect the really vulnerable.
In child protectin law, a health proffesional who is faced with a child who has an injury that may or may not have been accidental, the nurse/doctor has to use strict protocal with the parents full knowledge, in most cases, to decide if an investigation is needed. This is reguardless of whether the nurse thinks it was an accident or not.
To be on the receiving end of that when you are innocent is horrific I imagine, but also understandable.

I feel that the same safeguard should be in place for smacking. -give the message out that it is a childs right, their human right, to not have force used against them. as it is an adult right.

Then perhaps over time this will become a culture.

I beleive this because of the need to protect children form abuse.

and I beleive this because smacking is, IMO and IME, unnecessary.

At a very young age, after seeing and knowing about some quite abusive relationships, I said to myself, "If my dh/bf ever laid a hand on me, whether I was in the wrong or not, it would be all over between us. He wouldn't get a second chance."

One good reason I never did any smacking, and wouldn't let my husband do any either, is that I couldn't see why my children were not entitled to rights which I claimed for myself.

totally agree RNF, a simple issue of human rights is all it boils down to.

Thankyoupoppet - I would agree with you about the legistalation if I seriously thought it would stop child abuse. In fact if I felt there was a direct link between say, DS's occasional smack or a smack I may have had when naughty as a child and say; the terrible cruelty Victoria Climbie suffered in her short life, then I would back banning it; but they are not exactly the same thing. Its a bit like confusing smeone who has a glass of wine with their meal on a Saturday evening and someone who mainlines herione. One is a considered choice, the other is someone out of control.

I'm not trying to be trite; I just think the two things are seperate issues. Same spectrum yes, but different ends of it.

If a child has been hurt so much they are left with an injury or bruise etc, then I agree that is child abuse and there should be intervention by social services, the police etc. The trouble is that children are abused in many ways, verbal, mental, sexual etc, which don't leave physical marks but are just as damaging and in some cases more damaging.

There have been plenty of people on this thread who have said they felt smacking didn't damage them but other things did. I'm sure we would all agree to legislation if we thought it would stop child abuse.

Agreed humphreycushion & KW - i'm fed up with the whole good mother/bad mother debate ...this country is obssessed with assessing people and there is a pressure to 'keep up appearences' - if mothers were respected more for the wonderful jobs they are doing the world would be happier! There will always be exceptions to the rule, but on the whole mothers work very hard for no money and are doing a fine job IMO. WELL DONE!

Where do i stand on smacking? I've smacked my ds1 once...we were standing on a busy road and he refused to get in his car seat (2.6 yo and having one of those moments) - i had his baby sis in my arms and it was very scarey. I smacked him to take control - he was shocked and got straight in - phew. It was horrible but necessary. No regrets. I haven't smacked since or intend to unless a situation were to raise itself like that again. It worked and i'm glad. We talked about it and made peace once we were all safely strapped in car.

BTW cats 'smack' their kittens when they're being out of line - my cat had kittens and the kittens often had a heavy paw brought down on them if they were being too rough. They would squeal, stop for a mo and then run off to play.

There is a natural motherly instinct that doesn't want to harm - it wants to protect and guide.

Beegee - agree re natural motherly insinct and its not helpful to be over emotive and confuse that natural instict to guide and protect with "child abuse" and "human rights abuse" FGS

would any of you who agree with smacking smack a child who's brain damaged/impaired?

To me smacking a child who is NT is no different. They are just learning. They aren't naughty on purpose most of the time. It's being a kid,enviroment etc.. that makes their behaviour as it is.

Smacking is a lazy form of punishment IMO. I would rather use any other form. I have used time outs, star charts, removing favourite toys etc.. all of which are working nicely thank you and my kids are amazing. Am always being praised about them. They are horrors at times but they're kids so what? I'd be worried if they were like little scared rabbits who ever flinched when I raised a hand. DS1 who is almost 9 laughs when I say I'm going to give you a good hiding as he knows it's in jest. I was smacked as a child and it did me harm. My dad was brought up like that and so did it to us.

That's right fatfox - as i say there will always be exceptions to the rule - i remember a moment when a woman was verbally abusing her child in the street and it was appauling but on the whole i think parents are really doing their best!

agree with the danger issue, if it is a way of preventing serious injury or threat and the only option yes I agree it is instinctive.

my argument is that a big culture shift is needed in order to change attitudes. at the moment the human/parent right to use force over-rides the child/human right to not have force used against them. perhaps a change of law will help?

Not to protect the children who receive 'a gentle and loving smack' but to protect the children who's parents don't know the difference between that and abuse.

agree with the danger issue, if it is a way of preventing serious injury or threat and the only option yes I agree it is instinctive.

my argument is that a big culture shift is needed in order to change attitudes. at the moment the human/parent right to use force over-rides the child/human right to not have force used against them. perhaps a change of law will help?

Not to protect the children who receive 'a gentle and loving smack' but to protect the children who's parents don't know the difference between that and abuse.

Ulysees - i don't think it's any different if you were sure you would be able to take control over a dangerous situation. A child who is impaired also needs to be treated equally if, of course, they are able to learn from the moment.

If yor childs in danger you will instinctively do what you can to protect them.

so by in danger what do you mean? I don't understand where smacking a child will save them from anything? I'm open to discussion though.

I don't think the government should ban smacking believe it or not as it's going to take a long long time for anything to change. I think banning would just cause frustration and then what could happen?

so should teachers or carers be able to smack then? Say the teachers are all out doing road safety and a kid goes to cross the road?

I mean - when my toddler was having a paddy by a main road he was about to run away and out onto the road. he was tugging away from me (i had my 4 mo dd in my other arm)I smacked him without hesitation...my instinct kicked in...to shock him into listening to me and to do as he was told immediately. He calmed down in a moment and he knew he couldn't get his way as - YES - i was bigger and more powerful than him. But, i needed to rule in that moment. He didn't understand the danger...

I should think that a teacher wouldn't be faced with a toddler having a temper tantrum when learning road safety. I remember learning road safety at school (the tufty club!!) and it was fun A mum dragging two children back to strap them into their car seats in the rain is not fun...but life can't always be fun for mums or their children - sometimes situations are dangerous and need immediate attention...that's job well done IMO

I don't knowe about carers ulysees, but I certainly believe teachers should be given back the power to chastise in SOME way, what way I don't know, but now they can't even TOUCH a child and boy don't some children know that.

I had a newborn and a 2.5 year old so I know how hard it is. DS1 was easy to talk to as he spoke early. I used a buggy board and reins. DS2 was an absolute nightmare from 2 onwards. I used to almost cry whilst waiting to pick up ds1 from school I'd be sweating by the time we got home as he was such a struggle. Ended up it was because of his birth and luckily cranial osteopathy did the trick. But that was after a long time of suffering.